PK Kursk scn finished

[kondi754]

I was able to finish PK campaing today. Finally.
The last battle isn't particularly difficult (although I've lost a few units), but it is extremely important to properly deploy units and plan the next action on the battlefield in time.
I was afraid of this mission because no one had time to play it during the betatests, but it is not bad at all.
I still think that Me 410 has too high statistics.
I also think that besides the destruction of 15 Soviet armored units, the goal of the mission should also be to capture Prokhorovka.
The last 6-7 turns I focused on taking VP in the west of the map, when nothing interesting happened in the center of the map, because there was no need to attack further.
I saved my Core after my tactical victory at Kursk and I am waiting for Volkskrieg ...

[Andy2012]

Well done. Now to the desert first. Bring your towel.

[13obo]

Always bring a towel whichever part of the universe you end up visiting.

[Horst]

With historical knowledge that most actions will happen near Prokhorovka, it is already a huge advantage to rather shift more and the strongest units to the right than left side from beginning.

[kondi754]

With historical knowledge that most actions will happen near Prokhorovka, it is already a huge advantage to rather shift more and the strongest units to the right than left side from beginning.

Of course, you're right.
Historical knowlege helps a lot during this scenario.

My losses in battle (core):
1x Inf 43, 1x HvInf 43, 1x Pz IVF2, 1x StuG IIIF/8

What do you think is it big losses for the first try?

[Mojko]

I was able to capture Oboyan and create two large Soviet pockets that got instantly undersupplied and annihilated. The only Soviet units that escaped the storm were a couple of infantry units hiding in upper left and upper right corner. I played on middle difficulty. I agree that the initial deployment is extremely important and I made a good use of 17K 18 here because these units can fire at enemy artillery positions right from the deployment zone. My takeaway from BlitzKrieg campaign is:

- 17K 18 is better than 21 Mrs 18
- Flak 88 is better than mobile AT guns
- do not deploy your tactical bombers until the skies are reasonably clear (you don't have to escort them then), you probably won't use them anyway because it will take some turns to suppress enemy AA anyway (because you need to suppress enemy artillery first)
- heavy use of engineers an excellent idea to save resources as these guys are the best cannon fodder units (cheap to replace) when attacking and they also seem to be a magnet to draw enemy artillery fire
- Panthers are much better then Tigers as there is huge difference between 3 and 4 movement (no it's not "just" one point) and also Tigers are heavy treaded which is bad
- you should never attack a unit with your tank that is not suppressed (suppress first, do not take losses on your tanks)
- do not use elite replacements on 5 star unit, when damaged slightly use normal replacements and lower it to 4 stars, it makes the replacements cheaper until you get back to 5 stars and it's not that much difference between 4 and 5 star in terms of combat
- Gebirgsjager are much better than regular infantry as they can move in snow and mud normally
- do not attack very wide frontline, but pierce through and form an undersupplied pocket and cleanup ideally with just auxiliary units

[Horst]

Considering the many heavy Soviet tanks and SPGs, highest difficulty, and therefore less own RP available to purchase only super-heavy artillery like the 17 cm , two inf and two medium vehicles are still an acceptable loss.
There is a bug with Panzerkeil that gives the AI units more defense instead of own units, so whatever is allied next to Tiger tanks is at a disadvantage.

[Halvralf]

I was able to capture Oboyan and create two large Soviet pockets that got instantly undersupplied and annihilated. The only Soviet units that escaped the storm were a couple of infantry units hiding in upper left and upper right corner. I played on middle difficulty. I agree that the initial deployment is extremely important and I made a good use of 17K 18 here because these units can fire at enemy artillery positions right from the deployment zone. My takeaway from BlitzKrieg campaign is:

- 17K 18 is better than 21 Mrs 18
- Flak 88 is better than mobile AT guns
- do not deploy your tactical bombers until the skies are reasonably clear (you don't have to escort them then), you probably won't use them anyway because it will take some turns to suppress enemy AA anyway (because you need to suppress enemy artillery first)
- heavy use of engineers an excellent idea to save resources as these guys are the best cannon fodder units (cheap to replace) when attacking and they also seem to be a magnet to draw enemy artillery fire
- Panthers are much better then Tigers as there is huge difference between 3 and 4 movement (no it's not "just" one point) and also Tigers are heavy treaded which is bad
- you should never attack a unit with your tank that is not suppressed (suppress first, do not take losses on your tanks)
- do not use elite replacements on 5 star unit, when damaged slightly use normal replacements and lower it to 4 stars, it makes the replacements cheaper until you get back to 5 stars and it's not that much difference between 4 and 5 star in terms of combat
- Gebirgsjager are much better than regular infantry as they can move in snow and mud normally
- do not attack very wide frontline, but pierce through and form an undersupplied pocket and cleanup ideally with just auxiliary units

Would be interesting to know what Specialisations you took at the highest Tier

[kondi754]

I was able to capture Oboyan and create two large Soviet pockets that got instantly undersupplied and annihilated. The only Soviet units that escaped the storm were a couple of infantry units hiding in upper left and upper right corner. I played on middle difficulty. I agree that the initial deployment is extremely important and I made a good use of 17K 18 here because these units can fire at enemy artillery positions right from the deployment zone. My takeaway from BlitzKrieg campaign is:

- 17K 18 is better than 21 Mrs 18
- Flak 88 is better than mobile AT guns
- do not deploy your tactical bombers until the skies are reasonably clear (you don't have to escort them then), you probably won't use them anyway because it will take some turns to suppress enemy AA anyway (because you need to suppress enemy artillery first)
- heavy use of engineers an excellent idea to save resources as these guys are the best cannon fodder units (cheap to replace) when attacking and they also seem to be a magnet to draw enemy artillery fire
- Panthers are much better then Tigers as there is huge difference between 3 and 4 movement (no it's not "just" one point) and also Tigers are heavy treaded which is bad
- you should never attack a unit with your tank that is not suppressed (suppress first, do not take losses on your tanks)
- do not use elite replacements on 5 star unit, when damaged slightly use normal replacements and lower it to 4 stars, it makes the replacements cheaper until you get back to 5 stars and it's not that much difference between 4 and 5 star in terms of combat
- Gebirgsjager are much better than regular infantry as they can move in snow and mud normally
- do not attack very wide frontline, but pierce through and form an undersupplied pocket and cleanup ideally with just auxiliary units

I came to the conclusion that I know nothing about OOB, when I read it.
Mojko, I'm seriously impressed

The problem is that I always try to build my army in accordance with the historical realities. Probably that's why I have a harder time later.

Besides, I must tell you that when you play on the hardest level, you don't have much RPs to buy very expensive heavy artillery.

[kondi754]

Considering the many heavy Soviet tanks and SPGs, highest difficulty, and therefore less own RP available to purchase only super-heavy artillery like the 17 cm , two inf and two medium vehicles are still an acceptable loss.
There is a bug with Panzerkeil that gives the AI units more defense instead of own units, so whatever is allied next to Tiger tanks is at a disadvantage.

Thanks Horst,
I think that way, too.
Panzerkeil bug is a very serious matter. Do devs know about this?

[GabeKnight]

- 17cm K18 is better than 21cm Mrs 18
- Gebirgsjager are much better than regular infantry as they can move in snow and mud normally
- you should never attack a unit with your tank that is not suppressed (suppress first, do not take losses on your tanks)
- do not use elite replacements on 5 star unit, when damaged slightly use normal replacements and lower it to 4 stars, it makes the replacements cheaper until you get back to 5 stars and it's not that much difference between 4 and 5 star in terms of combat

This I'll agree on fully.

- heavy use of engineers an excellent idea to save resources as these guys are the best cannon fodder units (cheap to replace) when attacking and they also seem to be a magnet to draw enemy artillery fire
- do not deploy your tactical bombers until the skies are reasonably clear (you don't have to escort them then)

This is dependent on how many RP's you got and on individual playstyle, I'd say. Sometime's I'd even use a StuKa as "bait" to soften up enemy fighters with the supporting dogfighters. With one or two HP less on the enemy planes, your fighters take no damage attacking them the next turn. But don't do this if you're short on money, though.
Usually I have no real RP problems, so I'd try not to use infantry units that much, if it can be somehow avoided. They're cheap, that's true, but they get attacked and damaged A LOT and VERY OFTEN and any experience and elite repairs seems to be completely wasted on them. The exception's the heavy infantry, if used wisely as defensive unit and as mortar infantry. I'll always prefer arty or strat. bombers to engineers.

- Flak 88 is better than mobile AT guns

Here we differ. For one, the 88's need a whole turn to set up, so way too slow for an "emergency back-up" or my usual aggressive approaches. Their defensive stats are a joke and they're useless against infantry. After there's no more enemy armour on the map these units become a complete waste of CP - as fighter planes do in the same situation.

- Panthers are much better then Tigers as there is huge difference between 3 and 4 movement (no it's not "just" one point) and also Tigers are heavy treaded which is bad

Here I may concur if it weren't for that "unreliable" trait of the Panther D's which isn't removed by the Kursk mission. The Tiger's get their "E" upgrade just in time to be reliable again.

[Mojko]

This is dependent on how many RP's you got and on individual playstyle, I'd say. Sometime's I'd even use a StuKa as "bait" to soften up enemy fighters with the supporting dogfighters. With one or two HP less on the enemy planes, your fighters take no damage attacking them the next turn. But don't do this if you're short on money, though.
Usually I have no real RP problems, so I'd try not to use infantry units that much, if it can be somehow avoided. They're cheap, that's true, but they get attacked and damaged A LOT and VERY OFTEN and any experience and elite repairs seems to be completely wasted on them. The exception's the heavy infantry, if used wisely as defensive unit and as mortar infantry. I'll always prefer arty or strat. bombers to engineers.

It really depends on your playstyle but when I said engineers are great cannon fodder, I meant that you should use them to do the first attack on a unit, not to get them beaten up for no good reason. Also, their defensive capabilities are no joke. 1 engineer, 1 Flak 88 and bunch of Romanian units were able to completely stop Soviet attack via Kotelnikovo route during Winterstorm. All other core units were able to be used to crush the northern Soviet attack and then march to Stalingrad almost unopposed.

Here we differ. For one, the 88's need a whole turn to set up, so way too slow for an "emergency back-up" or my usual aggressive approaches. Their defensive stats are a joke and they're useless against infantry. After there's no more enemy armour on the map these units become a complete waste of CP - as fighter planes do in the same situation.

This one again depends on your play style, but if any units are attacking your Flak 88 you're doing something wrong. They are a support unit, they are not meant to be used directly in combat. Flak 88 has one of the highest CP to power ratio of all units in the game. This leaves you with much more CPs to actually use one other things, like my 6x 17K 18 artillery pieces and transports for my engineers. I also need to add that in lot of scenarios there are aux mobile AT guns available which I found adequate.

Here I may concur if it weren't for that "unreliable" trait of the Panther D's which isn't removed by the Kursk mission. The Tiger's get their "E" upgrade just in time to be reliable again.

I used Panthers only in the last scenario and I felt no time pressure here. It's true that the panthers needed to rest often, but then again most of the enemy tanks were taken care of by by Stuka G bombers.

[GabeKnight]

It really depends on your playstyle but when I said engineers are great cannon fodder, I meant that you should use them to do the first attack on a unit, not to get them beaten up for no good reason. Also, their defensive capabilities are no joke. 1 engineer, 1 Flak 88 and bunch of Romanian units were able to completely stop Soviet attack via Kotelnikovo route during Winterstorm. All other core units were able to be used to crush the northern Soviet attack and then march to Stalingrad almost unopposed.

By chance, I've played Winterstorm just today - I actually met up with the 6th army on both fronts, north- and southbound. You're right, it was quite easy.

What I meant is this: If you have an inf. unit (especially the engineers have weak def. stats, therefore my example) supported by a strong AT unit, the enemy will attack nonetheless, probably with an arty strike first. Then all other AI units will move in and attack this one single infantry unit. After the first hit (maybe two), even with strong AT support, my infantry will be weak and the return-damage to the enemy will become far less to even none. And the infantry unit's low on HP and probably low on efficiency also and had to retreat. This won't happen with a tank front with AT support. The enemy's gonna approach and stop in front of you. Then you'll have the following turns to wear them down with arty or planes or whatever. Your tanks may get one HP damage if you're unlucky, but no efficiency loss, no retreat. And Blitzkrieg tactics can continue.

This one again depends on your play style, but if any units are attacking your Flak 88 you're doing something wrong. They are a support unit, they are not meant to be used directly in combat. Flak 88 has one of the highest CP to power ratio of all units in the game. This leaves you with much more CPs to actually use one other things, like my 6x 17K 18 artillery pieces and transports for my engineers. I also need to add that in lot of scenarios there are aux mobile AT guns available which I found adequate.

I've watched some of your Replays, so I know you like to deploy LOTS of infantry and like to build defensive positions, entrench and wait for the enemy to come. That's okay and a viable (and probably most cost efficient) tactic.
It's just not how I like to play. I don't have the patience for such slow gameplay. I like to act and not just react. Most of the times I take the offensive role even in defensive scenarios. I like my units mobile, so i can advance fast and react to changing enemy movements at the same time. Most of the time I never entrench any of my units. And with the 88's I'd ALWAYS have to have enough other units around to completely surround the 88, because as you said, you can't allow the 88 to be attacked directly or be used to attack. No, no, no. I like my StuGs, they can hold ground on their own, attack the enemy AND support the nearby units at the same time. My favourites.
Granted, I don't have much RP saved up most of the time, but why should I? I rather spend it on expensive units or upgrades. The income per turn is enough to repair on the field. And I can't take the money to my grave anyway (or with my exported core)

[Mojko]

Granted, I don't have much RP saved up most of the time, but why should I? I rather spend it on expensive units or upgrades. The income per turn is enough to repair on the field. And I can't take the money to my grave anyway (or with my exported core)

You're right we definitely have different play styles, but that's fine. I think it's a good thing that a scenario can be played in different styles. I always try to play the style which is most cost efficient and I treat the remaining RPs at the end of the campaign as my Score points. So for me it does matter if unused RPs are available even though you can't import them later

[Mojko]

Would be interesting to know what Specialisations you took at the highest Tier

[Andy2012]

@Mojko: Okay, usually I dont have the time and patience for this, but now I have to watch your replays. Somehow, maybe this weekend.

[Halvralf]

@Mojko: Okay, usually I dont have the time and patience for this, but now I have to watch your replays. Somehow, maybe this weekend.

I have watched the first 5 replays but they are really a mess. Gave me some good ideas about core force thou and I do agree with Mojko about Engineers. When I entered Sevastopol they chewed thru everything!!! With Goliath Mine spec they are awesome in close terrain (aka cities) and forests), I am very interested how they will be in Stalingrad ( I am starting Voronezh this evening.)

Regarding Stugs vs 88's I do run with 88's atm. My reason is that it's available from start (early deploy=more RP in the end), better AT stats, uses less CP's and also useful as AA to protect my precious Artillery.
To compare using 3xStugs=480 RP's 15 CP's. Using 3x88's= 300 RP's 9CP's. That hands me 180 more RP's and 6CP's to use on Art or Tanks.

Stugs is tempting thou as they are combined AT and Tank but using my old 88's has made it possible to update my tank force faster and also gain powerful artillery fast.
I guess there is no "right" or "wrong" regarding this as I assume we all have different ways of playing and creating our forces.

[kondi754]

I used 2 or 3 88 Flak during the Blitzkrieg, mainly because there was no other alternative.
PK forced the use of StuGs because they are much more mobile.

If someone prefers 17cm heavy arty he must save (I mean accumulate) on everything, hence he use 88 Flak.
My artillery during PK is: 1x 15cm medium arty, 1x 10cm field arty, 2x 7.5cm light arty, 1x Wuhrammen, 1x Sturmpanzer (upgraded to Hummel before Kursk), 1x Brummbar acquired before Kursk and that's enough for me, it's mostly very mobile.
Thanks to this I have 1x Tiger, 3x Pz IVF2/H, 4x StuG IIIF/F8/G during fights at Prokhorovka. For AA I use mobile batteries.

I think there are many different ways to the target and if I play as I play, so probably my way isn't the worst.

[Mojko]

@Mojko: Okay, usually I dont have the time and patience for this, but now I have to watch your replays. Somehow, maybe this weekend.

I'm honoured Btw feel free to share your replays as well and that applies to everyone here. I'm keen on having a look at completely different strategies and also I would like to compare resource spending. If you don't feel comfortable with posting your replay, please post at least your ending RPs and difficulty level.

[GabeKnight]

I'm honoured Btw feel free to share your replays as well and that applies to everyone here. I'm keen on having a look at completely different strategies and also I would like to compare resource spending. If you don't feel comfortable with posting your replay, please post at least your ending RPs and difficulty level.

Mine are here, although I've modified the last (Kursk) scenario a bit (increased enemy's income) like described in the thread. So it may not be the best example.