Horse Transport

[Pwnerade]

Horse transport shouldn't cost CP. Trucks require fuel, rubber spare parts, etc, but horses just need food. Germany made extensive use of horses because they simply couldn't afford and fuel a fully motorized army. In the game, they cost only slightly less than trucks, so I never buy them. If they cost only RP and not CP, players would be more likely to use them. Having all my artillery towed by vehicles on the Eastern Front is very historically inaccurate!

[terminator]

For this kind of small units, I simply do not use any transport

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[kondi754]

Horse transport shouldn't cost CP. Trucks require fuel, rubber spare parts, etc, but horses just need food. Germany made extensive use of horses because they simply couldn't afford and fuel a fully motorized army. In the game, they cost only slightly less than trucks, so I never buy them. If they cost only RP and not CP, players would be more likely to use them. Having all my artillery towed by vehicles on the Eastern Front is very historically inaccurate!

I also thought about it, but... horses need a huge amount of forage, but also straw and stables
In the German infantry division there were several thousand horses, only the feeding for them required another several thousand carts pulled by horses or several hundred trucks
In the summer they could nibble on the meadow , but in the fall and winter they needed much more attention

[timberwolf15]

But then the units could eat the horses as needed and make glues and play polo so there should be a balance ???

[Erik2]

But then the units could eat the horses as needed and make glues and play polo so there should be a balance ???

I think you need to play polo before you eat the horse

[kondi754]

But then the units could eat the horses as needed and make glues and play polo so there should be a balance ???

Ok, they ate horses and what next? This helped them survive a few weeks in the encirclement but they had to abandon artillery during the retreat on the other hand
This must be clear - horses were used because many factions didn't have enough trucks, because horses were a lot more trouble, so using horses was a compulsion not a choice


Polo was probably only in the British army in India

[prestidigitation]

Horses living a normal lifestyle of mostly pasture existence with some light labor or riding can afford to spend 8-12 hours a day feeding, self grooming and taking care of themselves. They also need regular play and love spending time with people.

Horses in an army doing heavy labor must be fed oats or other high energy grains or they will rapidly die of starvation and exhaustion as many did in Nazi service (and also, as David Stahel writes, because the Nazis were utterly atrocious in their treatment of horses, routinely abusing them or killing them for entertainment).

Horses are also not cars that run on oats.

They need proper shoes for their conditions. If running on hard roads for long periods while pulling heavy loads their hooves will shatter. On ice or snow they need sharpened shoes to allow them to cut through and get sure footing or they will quickly become exhausted or break a leg. On mud for long periods and the hooves will rot. Proper care is required _every day_. Veterinary care is also essential, as just like humans horses get sick and need a doctor. Horses used to the temperate weather of Central Europe and not given proper equipment or care when exposed to the extreme heats and chills of Russia will die, especially when left exposed without a stable. Meanwhile, as Armand de Caulaincourt amply demonstrated during the 1812 French campaign in Russia, a well treated horse even from Central Europe can easily survive a campaign in Russia no matter how brutal even as countless other horses die of malnutrition, neglect and exposure around it.

At the end of a day of work their gear needs removing and coat needs grooming or they will develop sores and quickly become unfit for work.

Anyone who has ever worked with horses will view the suggestion of eating them with disgust. These are extremely bright creatures, easily as smart as a bright dog or a toddler. They are also deeply affectionate to those who treat them well, and eager to work hard. It would be akin to eating a child.

As for the price, it is very reasonable and if anything too cheap. I would personally include a global fuel stockpile in every campaign that was carried over from mission to mission and consumed by vehicles moving and exempt horses from it with different replenishment based on the scenario designer's decisions and maybe difficulty and the like. This would encourage players to primarily run an infantry force and avoid motorization. I would also remove the command point cost from motorized vehicles.

[timberwolf15]

Seems like horses require a lot of maintenance but in the wild they require none or in other words they get none no shoes or hoof maintenance etc. or special food the big difference only being the lack of strenuous work ???

[bebro]

FWIW one of the reasons to have modern public transport (bus, subway, etc) was that the huge number of horses needed in cities like New York, London etc in the late 19th/early 20th century posed huge logistical probs in terms of food, space, waste etc.

However, my kingdom for a horse!

[kondi754]

FWIW one of the reasons to have modern public transport (bus, subway, etc) was that the huge number of horses needed in cities like New York, London etc in the late 19th/early 20th century posed huge logistical probs in terms of food, space, waste etc.

However, my kingdom for a horse!

Richard III, William Shakespeare

So, maybe there sould be 1 CP, 20 RPs for horses but 0 CP, 60 RPs for trucks and 0 CP, 90 RPs for halftracks
Vehicles were more expensive in "production" than horses (so more RPs for them), BUT animals were much more demanding to use than trucks ( so this 1 CP for them)

[timberwolf15]

According to my impeccable knowledge of WWII my perhaps flawed understanding of many of the units in the war is that they readily had transport. Point is it peeves me how much it cost to have a truck or half-track associated with a unit - specifically if you are the German player and you assign 3 trucks to 3 different infantry units it costs you 3 CP which means you now have 1 less Infantry unit. Problem is I am not sure what the solution should be ... I think I an in favor of kondi above it should cost ZERO CP points but should cost something so have it cost resources. Of course to code all this in would probably be tedious and a nightmare --- overall OOB is still fantastic if for no other reason than all of these issues cause one to weigh the pros and cons of doing something or not ... wooo hoo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nrOihuYBXE

[GabeKnight]

Yeah, but it's not like cars/trucks don't require "attention", too. Mechanics, garage and tools, spare parts, fuel, lubricants, paint, etc. ...or... some chewing gum and duct tape, if you're MacGyver...

Adjusting CP and cost of transports is super easily done in the units file, BTW.

As for Kondi's idea, I think that transports should definitely cost CP (except for special, rare cases). Only if their cost would be included in the unit's repair costs, then maybe I would go with your idea. A one-time payment of 60RP/unit is nothing, and then all your units will have free transport?

But you can try it in your mod and report, if you really like it that way.

[kondi754]

Yeah, but it's not like cars/trucks don't require "attention", too. Mechanics, garage and tools, spare parts, fuel, lubricants, paint, etc. ...or... some chewing gum and duct tape, if you're MacGyver...

Adjusting CP and cost of transports is super easily done in the units file, BTW.

As for Kondi's idea, I think that transports should definitely cost CP (except for special, rare cases). Only if their cost would be included in the unit's repair costs, then maybe I would go with your idea. A one-time payment of 60RP/unit is nothing, and then all your units will have free transport?

But you can try it in your mod and report, if you really like it that way.

So maybe trucks should be for purchase before every scenario ? They would be "erased" from unit after battle...
Horse too
Of course, they should cost less in such terms ( 30 RPs for truck / 60 RPs for halftrack / 15 RPs for horses )

[conboy]

Motor Pool Idea
Along these lines,
1) The US Infantry Divisions in WWII had limited trucks for the infantry - so the the Motor Pool would be assigned to whatever units needed them for a movement, then return to the Division awaiting next orders. So in OoB, the units would have trucks assigned and then removed after the movement. Not very easy!

2) At other times, for a major movement, especially administrative (unopposed through friendly territory), the motor pool would shuttle the units to the destination -- load up as many footsoldier units as possible, drive to the destination, then go back and bring more until the division was moved.

3) Finally, unrelated to motor pool, but very relevant, is that it became apparent after a while that an entire infantry squad could mount up on a tank destroyer or a tank and transport that way. So a tank battalion or a tank destroyer battalion could transport a sizeable number of infantry quite rapidly (I haven't done the math... ((vehicles per armor battalion X number of infantry per squad)/Infantry battalion size)

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I poked around for a while to see if any of these modes could be implemented without a Mod, but gave up, and ended up assigning every Infantry Battalion its own truck.

interesting discussion!

conboy

[GabeKnight]

Sorry, guys, I rather shouldn't have barged in this thread here. Yes, there are some nice ideas about a motor pool and asigning transports at will at scen start, but actually I'm quite happy with the current implementation. Transports add to the unit's mobility and offer additional offensive capabilities, for example arty in halftracks. I'm okay with that having one more land CP cost.

[terminator]

When will we finally have a German cavalry?

German-Cavalry-in-village-burning-village-near-Mohylev-16th-July-1941.warhistoryonline.jpg (49.19 KiB) Viewed 3658 times

Edit: When will we finally have an Official German Cavalry ?

[kondi754]

Sorry, guys, I rather shouldn't have barged in this thread here. Yes, there are some nice ideas about a motor pool and asigning transports at will at scen start, but actually I'm quite happy with the current implementation. Transports add to the unit's mobility and offer additional offensive capabilities, for example arty in halftracks. I'm okay with that having one more land CP cost.

Ok, Gabe

From my POV these are only considerations
I think about my Mod, I've made many tests with different equipment during work on Sandstorm historical version (devs and modders equipment if you remember from our private correspondence ), but also I've modified game rules and other things
OoB's devs version is proper but I feel that there is alternative system to made, which will be optimal

[terminator]

The Death March of Hitler’s Seventh Infantry Division

On June 22, 1941, an order was issued to attack the Soviet Union. The 7th Infantry Division was also on its way to Moscow - to extinction.

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The daily demand for 170 tons of food, ammunition and fuel has been met with trucks ...

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...and carried around 5,000 horses.

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The 178 cars, 155 lorries and 242 Kräder, which were assigned to the combat units, were also soon replaced by horses during the fighting.

[kondi754]

The first photo is from rasputica period (October-November and March-May)
Moreover, there were useless both trucks and horse carts during rasputica - the only useful transport were Maultier half-track trucks during this period

[GabeKnight]

I think about my Mod, I've made many tests with different equipment during work on Sandstorm historical version (devs and modders equipment if you remember from our private correspondence ), but also I've modified game rules and other things
OoB's devs version is proper but I feel that there is alternative system to made, which will be optimal

You should definitely test your ideas, Kondi. It may suit you more and maybe it would balance out some of the (historical) limitations you've used in your mod.

The whole "transports are free"-idea is just not for me personally, and my own mod.
But I've played with a mod that considerably changed many unit stats and behaviours, and it was fun. Different, but fun.