The PzC 2 storm is finally here.

[bru888]

This is not my favorite game because I'm a supporter of maximum historical accuracy in war games, and PzC/PzC 2 does't even give a substitute for it, because it's not able to provide it

I'm curious - by this, do you mean that PzC 2 is not moddable? Because I know you have an OOB mod in which you strive for historical accuracy, and I always try to adhere to and enhance the historical value in what I create for custom scenarios and campaigns using the vanilla game. Which creates some stress at times, dealing with the limitations of vanilla OOB.

I should look over there and see if there is a PzC mod community; ostensibly, if there is one, there will be one for PzC 2. I just want to avoid temptation - I am fully engaged here and if I get involved with PzC 2, it will dilute my efforts with both games. Besides, then I would be living with all of those polka dots every time I focused on one of my units. Yeesh.

[Andy2012]

I should look over there and see if there is a PzC mod community; ostensibly, if there is one, there will be one for PzC 2. I just want to avoid temptation - I am fully engaged here and if I get involved with PzC 2, it will dilute my efforts with both games. Besides, then I would be living with all of those polka dots every time I focused on one of my units. Yeesh.

I bought and played it (I also liked PzC1), but I am no way as hardcore in terms of historical accuracy or modding or even gaming in general as you guys. For me, it is a nice break from OoB beta testing and I can appreciate both. (Especially when locked at home in a pandemic. Just went for a run, it is a ghosttown here; 250k+ people staying at home. Eerie as f***k.)

PzC2 has some interesting mechanics, I like the airfield transfer, overrun, support fire from arty and AT (stole that from OoB). Also, they spent more money on voice acting, which is nice. Hero system also feels a bit more motivating. But it is too early to compare both, PzC2 definitely needs a few patches to iron out the too aggressive AI and the town names covering unit tabs.

[kondi754]

This is not my favorite game because I'm a supporter of maximum historical accuracy in war games, and PzC/PzC 2 does't even give a substitute for it, because it's not able to provide it

I'm curious - by this, do you mean that PzC 2 is not moddable? Because I know you have an OOB mod in which you strive for historical accuracy, and I always try to adhere to and enhance the historical value in what I create for custom scenarios and campaigns using the vanilla game. Which creates some stress at times, dealing with the limitations of vanilla OOB.

I should look over there and see if there is a PzC mod community; ostensibly, if there is one, there will be one for PzC 2. I just want to avoid temptation - I am fully engaged here and if I get involved with PzC 2, it will dilute my efforts with both games. Besides, then I would be living with all of those polka dots every time I focused on one of my units. Yeesh.

To be honest, I think that PzC 2 may have greater potential for historical modification than PzC 1, where the whole idea of the game was ahistoric (e.g. how to create a core - 10 heavy tanks, 10 grenadiers units, 8 sp heavy arty, 8 jet fighters, 8 powerful bombers), in PzC 2 the introduction of "units weight" and "weight limit" (I think about slots, also stolen from OoB ), give the opportunity to make a substitute for a real war

BTW I think that OoB will always be much easier in this aspect (modding) than other games and it's big advantage

[bru888]

CoolDTA tells me that PzC 2 lacks a system of popup messages. If so, then that is a turn off for both this player and this designer. A great deal of creativity is lost for the lack of it.

[GabeKnight]

Bruce, how long did it take OoB until you were comfortable with their editors and the game build itself? Version 7.x or 8.x?

Even though quite long in development, PC2 is still a new game, fresh out in the open. Give it all a year or so and the game will become most interesting, I'm pretty sure of it.

[koopanique]

Honnestly there are now 2 "big" operational-level games with beer-and-pretzels gameplay and I just find it so surprising and enjoyable that we're at that point, despite strategy games being somewhat niche. Maybe in five years there'll be 3 or 4 and there will be even more threads like this one here on the OoB forum ^^ (and I mean that as a positive thing, it's good to discuss what is likeable/dislikeable about such and such games)

[CoolDTA]

PzC 1, where the whole idea of the game was ahistoric (e.g. how to create a core - 10 heavy tanks, 10 grenadiers units, 8 sp heavy arty, 8 jet fighters, 8 powerful bombers), in PzC 2 the introduction of "units weight" and "weight limit" (I think about slots, also stolen from OoB ), give the opportunity to make a substitute for a real war

No, that's not the whole idea more than for example in OoB. Buy those expensive units and soft cap cuts your prestige (RPs in OoB) to 20%. Sooner or later you're out of prestige and can't buy new units or repair the old ones -> defeat. There is no such mechanics in OoB. The composition of the core is at the player's discretition and for instance there are Grand Campaigns going on in YT right now in which players use historical cores. Such cores are "a bit" different from those you mentioned but you also accrue full prestige.

PzC has its own Scenario Design -forum just like we have here in OoB. But they don't have Bru and Erik, so hah! Krmh, sorry.

Like Andy said, PzC2 has some interesting mechanics, hero system etc. Not a big fan of how the air units work. Currently the game is very barebones. It doesn't even have an outro after the battle and indeed completely lacks flavour adding features such as popups. My biggest dislike is the graphics which is probably the one thing that will never change. Otherwise I agree with Gabe: PzC2 will improve after patches. I will buy it, but not yet, because my current offer considering its worth to me is 5€/$ and to my astonishment it is apparently not enough??

[kondi754]

PzC 1, where the whole idea of the game was ahistoric (e.g. how to create a core - 10 heavy tanks, 10 grenadiers units, 8 sp heavy arty, 8 jet fighters, 8 powerful bombers), in PzC 2 the introduction of "units weight" and "weight limit" (I think about slots, also stolen from OoB ), give the opportunity to make a substitute for a real war

No, that's not the whole idea more than for example in OoB. Buy those expensive units and soft cap cuts your prestige (RPs in OoB) to 20%. Sooner or later you're out of prestige and can't buy new units or repair the old ones -> defeat. There is no such mechanics in OoB. The composition of the core is at the player's discretition and for instance there are Grand Campaigns going on in YT right now in which players use historical cores. Such cores are "a bit" different from those you mentioned but you also accrue full prestige.

Soft cap was added later and this is modder's thing.
But I played PzC with or without soft cap, and this game was always "buy or upgrade for the best equipment " for me
Core in PzC was always mix of the best infantry, the best tanks, the best (max powerful and max mobile) arty, the best fighters, the best bombers etc.

Additionally I know how to delete all prototypes and too strong (or ahistorical) units from OoB, and how to force player to conduct real and historical warfare, but I can't do this in PzC editor

[bru888]

Bruce, how long did it take OoB until you were comfortable with their editors and the game build itself? Version 7.x or 8.x?

Even though quite long in development, PC2 is still a new game, fresh out in the open. Give it all a year or so and the game will become most interesting, I'm pretty sure of it.

Heh, good question. I'd say . . . version 8.3.0! The first, for me at least, that has been (major) bug-free and reliably stable; i.e., neither the game nor the editors regularly crashing.

Which is why, by the way, I am staying with version 8.3.0 for the foreseeable future. When Red Steel comes out, I will borrow the various new Soviet unit and commander names from it (the units and commanders themselves are already in 8.3.0) and update my existing OOB installation accordingly. If I cannot play Red Steel for a while, I am fine with that. I want to see if they have various bugs with the upgraded GUI fixed first. That includes cosmetic issues with such thinks as faint or faulty fonts which would annoy me excessively.

When I look at the PzC franchise, I see wooden unit movement, excessive eye candy, a lack of a supply system, and now, as I mentioned above, no flavoring of popup messages. When I design, those are the things - the images as well as text - that give me the greatest joy. Not having them is a significant drawback for PzC.

Finally, there is the name itself: Panzer Corps. Maybe I should check before saying this but is it sill only Wehrmacht in Europe? The name would imply so. OOB, for all its faults, has already taken me all around the world (I am currently getting quite an education in Finnish geography, topography, history, language, and customs). Until PzC can match such breadth, it has a lot of catching up to do.

[CoolDTA]

Soft cap was added later and this is modder's thing.

It is the default setting in the vanilla game. Nothing to do with modders. Many things have changed in the patches of OoB, too. Or do you honestly still play with v1.5.8 (release version)?

But I played PzC with or without soft cap, and this game was always "buy or upgrade for the best equipment " for me
Core in PzC was always mix of the best infantry, the best tanks, the best (max powerful and max mobile) arty, the best fighters, the best bombers etc.

How is that any different from OoB? Except maybe that in the PzC Grand Campaign you cannot do that because you run out of prestige (soft cap). If you choose your core differently in one game compared to another, it is only your choice and the games are in fact irrelevant.

Additionally I know how to delete all prototypes and too strong (or ahistorical) units from OoB, and how to force player to conduct real and historical warfare, but I can't do this in PzC editor

Doesn't look much different from OoB in that using a spreadsheet program is probably how you accomplish that, but it is a question to be asked in PzC forums. Me not mod.

[CoolDTA]

Finally, there is the name itself: Panzer Corps. Maybe I should check before saying this but is it sill only Wehrmacht in Europe? The name would imply so.

Et tu, Bru? I had no idea ppl can honestly think like that, but since you're not the only one, I stand corrected. No, not Wehrmacht only: UK, US and USSR are also to be played in the DLCs and looks like other countries with custom campaigns. There's even the Battlefield: Europe mod for all of Europe and North Africa in one huge map for those who are interested (=not me). Note that all this applies to the original PzC.

(I am currently getting quite an education in Finnish geography, topography, history, language, and customs).

And an excellent student you are.

[bru888]

Et tu, Bru? I had no idea ppl can honestly think like that, but since you're not the only one, I stand corrected. No, not Wehrmacht only: UK, US and USSR are also to be played in the DLCs and looks like other countries with custom campaigns. There's even the Battlefield: Europe mod for all of Europe and North Africa in one huge map for those who are interested (=not me). Note that all this applies to the original PzC.

Poorly worded by me. I meant Europe (and North Africa) -centric. I know that you can play as other factions besides Germany.

From Slitherine's web page: Panzer Corps 2 is all about content. You can play for every major power in the European theatre of the Second World War [emphasis on "major"; i.e., I doubt that you can play as the Finns, for example] . . . Panzer Corps 2 comes with a massive branching campaign including around 60 scenarios: lead the Wehrmacht in the entirety of World War II, carrying over your battle-hardened veterans from one battle to the next [emphasis on "lead the Wehrmacht"].

There probably are mods (are there?) for different regions and factions but the basic game is limited in scope compared to OOB. I believe that is a safe statement.

[kondi754]

Soft cap was added later and this is modder's thing.

It is the default setting in the vanilla game. Nothing to do with modders. Many things have changed in the patches of OoB, too. Or do you honestly still play with v1.5.8 (release version)?

But I played PzC with or without soft cap, and this game was always "buy or upgrade for the best equipment " for me
Core in PzC was always mix of the best infantry, the best tanks, the best (max powerful and max mobile) arty, the best fighters, the best bombers etc.

How is that any different from OoB? Except maybe that in the PzC Grand Campaign you cannot do that because you run out of prestige (soft cap). If you choose your core differently in one game compared to another, it is only your choice and the games are in fact irrelevant.

Additionally I know how to delete all prototypes and too strong (or ahistorical) units from OoB, and how to force player to conduct real and historical warfare, but I can't do this in PzC editor

Doesn't look much different from OoB in that using a spreadsheet program is probably how you accomplish that, but it is a question to be asked in PzC forums. Me not mod.

I think you don't know what level of compliance with historical reality I think
I repeat, PzC was unable to provide this without completely rebuilding or changing the concept of the game, and above all creating many new or other units

[CoolDTA]

I think you don't know what level of compliance with historical reality I think
I repeat, PzC was unable to provide this without completely rebuilding or changing the concept of the game, and above all creating many new or other units

I've known you long enough to know the level and I for one admire your dedication.

I don't agree with you regarding PzC but that's okay, so let's just say we agree to disagree. Yes?

[CoolDTA]

From Slitherine's web page: Panzer Corps 2 is all about content. You can play for every major power in the European theatre of the Second World War [emphasis on "major"; i.e., I doubt that you can play as the Finns, for example] . . . Panzer Corps 2 comes with a massive branching campaign including around 60 scenarios: lead the Wehrmacht in the entirety of World War II, carrying over your battle-hardened veterans from one battle to the next [emphasis on "lead the Wehrmacht"].

There probably are mods (are there?) for different regions and factions but the basic game is limited in scope compared to OOB. I believe that is a safe statement.

PzC2 is a brand new game so no mods for it. If PzC is any indication, I definitely agree with you, and I wouldn't expect anything (at least official content) for instance Pacific related to be released in the future. I'd say OoB started with the more difficult aspect (OoB Pacific) which means you have to have at least decent mechanics to handle naval combat, carrier operations and amphibious assaults. PzC is much worse in this sense. After you have all that, it is imo easier to add regular ground combat. OoB's forte is that it had everything from the beginning. This is a huge thing and makes it possible to have all kind of battles anywhere in the world. That's at least how I see it.

Btw., from what I've read the "massive branching campaign" is not very massive at all...

[timberwolf15]

The problem with having a massive branching campaign is the player gets close to playing scenarios that they never get to play because they did so good or so bad on a previous scenario so ya gotta use cheat codes or something to play those "hidden" scenarios - it is interesting I suppose to have the outcome of a scenario determine where ya go next - BUT - it seems like there is some content I do not get to enjoy a map I have never played unless I do a cheat or something... then my core changes some cause I played this other scenario then my resources are off blah blah blah.

[kondi754]

I think you don't know what level of compliance with historical reality I think
I repeat, PzC was unable to provide this without completely rebuilding or changing the concept of the game, and above all creating many new or other units

I've known you long enough to know the level and I for one admire your dedication.

I don't agree with you regarding PzC but that's okay, so let's just say we agree to disagree. Yes?

Ok

some examples:
PzC 1 - one (max two) infantry type throughout the game
OoB - all infantry types have their new versions every year (39, 40, 41 etc.), so I can modify them in terms of their combat value in a given period, e.g. the German infantry from 1945 will undoubtedly be of lower quality than Geman inf from 1940 or 41 but this unit should have, after all, better hard defense value because it was well equipped with panzerfausts and panzerschrecks
The best German infantry unit is heavy infantry (grenadiers) from 1943-44, because there were still significant number of veterans and new AT equipment was available

next - artillery differentiation when it comes to range and number of other coefficients are also much better for historical modification than in PzC 1
there is much more to it

To be clear, when we have true and professional modder (like Erik for example), he is able to modify everything
but I'm a mere mortal who has considerable historical knowledge but very little skills in modding, so I choose OoB, which - of course only up to a point - is very friendly for amateurs

[Erik2]

.....
To be clear, when we have true and professional modder (like Erik for example), he is able to modify everything
but I'm a mere mortal who has considerable historical knowledge but very little skills in modding, so I choose OoB, which - of course only up to a point - is very friendly for amateurs

Just to be clear, I'm not a modder (yet?). I'm a scenario/campaign creator.
All my stuff is playable using the vanilla game.

[kondi754]

Ok, sorry for that, I didn't mean to offend you
I thought that modder is both a person who modifies the content of the game but also creates new content
So you are actually even further away - anyway, I can modify only a few things in ooB

[GabeKnight]

.....
To be clear, when we have true and professional modder (like Erik for example), he is able to modify everything
but I'm a mere mortal who has considerable historical knowledge but very little skills in modding, so I choose OoB, which - of course only up to a point - is very friendly for amateurs

Just to be clear, I'm not a modder (yet?). I'm a scenario/campaign creator.
All my stuff is playable using the vanilla game.

Maybe you don't publish mods, yet, but you sure know your way around the units file and such... you don't have to be that modest...