OoB Scale

[conboy]

A comment in another thread by Kondi got me thinking --

Because OoB is designed for battles on an operational scale (army group, army, corps) but not tactical (regiment, brigade, division)
Scenarios which have places on the islands, eg Someri or Tarawa atoll is tactical scale game or we can even say that it's battlefield tactical game (platoon, company, battalion)
The "unit.csv" file suggests that all unit rates (e.g. artillery) are adapted to corps or army level operations.
The best example is the range of artillery fire - average 3-4 hexes, and the average range of field artillery fire was about 10-13 km during the Second World War

I really like Unity of Command because it is absolutely countable and logical, all maps and units are on the appropriate scale.
That's why there will never be PTO in UoC.

Kondi, what is PTO?

All,
I am working on a division-level campaign in which the OoB tokens represent battalions. I noticed that when the hexes represent about 0.5 miles, the march speeds of infantry cannot match the actual pace of the battle. At first I overlooked it and then ran across Kondi's post, which got me to thinking (so watch out!)
I can make some adjustments by changing turns from 1 per day to 2 per day, but that makes for some long scenarios if one tries to hold to actual calendar dates for sequential events.
On a 1/2 mile hex, OoB march speeds are still slow at 2 turns per day and tactical artillery range is much reduced. For example, the German rail guns at Anzio could bombard the port from the hills north of Campoleone but the max range is 8 hexes, or 4 miles on that scale -- not enough to reach the port from the hills on a half-mile scale. Also, smaller guns only reach 2 miles as opposed to 6. Infantry road marches are about 3 miles per turn at that scale and only 12 miles per day with setting at 2 turns per day. No wonder I'm having trouble meeting operational timelines in such scenarios as Operation Dragoon, in which VI Corps units moved administratively 75 miles in a day, or 90 miles in 36 hours.
Anyway, I'm more concerned with infantry tactical speeds of 6 hexes detrucked and only 8 trucked (relying on memory...)
Trucks should at least double infantry march speeds and more appropriately treble them.
An intermediate step (e.g., 1.5 turns per day) would help with speed but not artillery range.
Then Kondi is basically correct in his assessment about this being a Corps-level game, but who ever heard of an anti-tank or anti-air Division? A recon Division? Maybe the Soviets had artillery Divisions supporting Armies but certainly none of the allies.
I suppose I could make a mod for Division-level (battalion tokens) play but ... but ... but ...

The game is still fun, no matter what the scale limitations. So are these discussions.

conboy

[bru888]

Conboy, you are not going to like this wet-blanket answer but, while I respect and admire your thoughts, it is my opinion that you are over-thinking things. These are counters on a game-board which, if you let it happen, your mind can gloss over such imperfections and instead imagine them as they should be, from platoons to divisions.

Take this grouping, for example:

Screenshot 4.jpg (413.21 KiB) Viewed 3041 times

There are giant flagpoles sticking "hundreds of feet" into the air. There is a colossal tank that the town could barely contain and which would cover almost the entire airfield. Yet there are soldiers who are taller than trees and buildings and who could not even fit into the tank individually. Concerning distances, one man could lay down and span the bridge!

Yet the mind overlooks these things somehow. My mind, anyway, and I would venture to guess that of most other OOB players. That includes the relative counter sizes, their representations as variously-sized units, and the distances they travel over time.

I am saying all this not to be a party pooper but to keep you from unnecessarily spending much time and effort trying to mod this away and ending up unhappy. A good scenario designer will try to allow for these things with map size and time calibration but after that is done, the game player's imagination must take over.

That said, let the discussions continue and if you are still enthusiastic, mod away to your heart's content!

[kondi754]

PTO - Pacific theater of operations

With such a map scale like yours, artillery should have approximately 15-30 (railway guns even 50 ) hexes range and your map will be really huge

I think that in OoB there shouldn't be light or field artillery as well as AA and AT (light/smaller caliber guns) as separate units, it should be by default (by increasing certain factors) inside Infantry units
one inf unit = division
Medium and heavy artillery should be available for purchase as independent artillery units subordinate to the commander of the corps or army
AT/AA only as self-propelled or towed medium and large caliber guns, which often appeared as independent battalions, regiments or brigades in all armies of World War II

But of course the most important thing is great fun and it doesn't really bother me that I command divisions on the Eastern Front and battalions (or even smaller units) in the Pacific

EDIT. Bru is right, it's impossible to accurately measure everything, if one thing will fit, another will be absurd
I think you have to approach OOB from a distance, ideally up to as many things were compliant with the reality, but you need to be aware that it will be impossible to full compliance

[conboy]

Bru, Kondi:

Thus encouraged, I shall proceed. Bru, I had to laugh all the way through your note. Not only was it funny, I am very rarely accused of over-analyzing anything!

Kondi, I often find myself looking for those little enhancements you can buy for your units in UoC. That would be a nice feature for OoB to be able to add an artillery or engineer or anti-tank enhancement to a formation.

I remain not discouraged, only slightly confounded.

conboy

[Zekedia222]

I would also like to add on to this discussion. Many naval units are completely unbalanced in terms of movement and range. Using what I called the Fubuki Scale, I determined that most Japanese cruisers should be able to move 1-2 hexes and hour, between about half of what a destroyer can travel and a quarter of what they can travel. But worse than that are the ranges. According to conversions done from the Fubuki's range, Yamato’s should be approximately 40 HEXES. Ranges are not exactly accurate.

[Erik2]

Re naval movement scale:
I have an (unpublished) mod with historical movements for the various naval ship classes.
I used the transport = 3 hexes = 12 knots as standard. This means most warships have larger movement rates.
The naval part of the game is faster, more historical correct and above all more fun to play.
The player will have more purchase options as well.
The ship costs would probably need some adjustments.

Re transports:
Infantry moves way too fast IMO. Players hardly bother with adding transports.
Why add trucks to 3 infantry units when you can purchase an additional inf instead.
I think transport should not cost 1 command point and the movement range (at least for trucks) should be greater.
Finally, a road should function as a road whatever the under-laying terrain. A road is a road is a road...
Reduce efficiency for units traveling in transports to reflect the lower combat-readiness.
Sorry for hi-jacking the thread

[conboy]

Erik,
I agree with your sentiments about infantry transport. With transport, infantry move distance should at least be doubled. As for cost, I tend to agree because higher-level commands can commandeer transports for use where they are needed the most. In my readings about Operation Dragoon, the 3rd Division had to shuttle units back and forth on transports (move them up on trucks and send the trucks back for more). The 3rd Division also (claims to have) pioneered the use of Tank Destroyers as infantry movers. They piled an infantry squad onto a TD and moved out.

I don't think they necessarily move too far on foot - I take it that you mean they move to far relative to armor or other fast units. I haven't considered that aspect of the issue.

I'll update the post with a picture and a reference for the transport discussion.

conboy