Battlelines - advantages/disadvantages ?

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:41 pm

Advantages
You get to use the commander for a double move for the whole battleline.
You get to fight in overlap.

Disadvantages
You are usually within 3MU's when someone breaks

What other advantages/disadvantages are there ? What am I missing ?

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:17 am

You can only move the BGs in the commanders range in the BL. So a TC can only move the BGs in line within 4 MU. (About 3 BGs). Now with my Dacians the IC can move 12MU in each direction so most of the infantry.

Yes you are close for breaking in practice it is worth the risk.

The other advantage is units that need a CMT take a test as the line, so BWg in the BL can test and move with everyone.

Also the general is with the BL so undrilled troops can move less than a full move if they don't make the CMT.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 4:28 am

Ah, but if you try to move a BL that includes BW and/or LArt and fail, you cannot move anyone declaed as part of the BL for that move.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 7:36 am

if you try to move a BL that includes BW and/or LArt and fail, you cannot move anyone declaed as part of the BL for that move.

Yes you can. Troops that fail a CMT can make a normal move.

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:28 pm

philqw78 wrote:
if you try to move a BL that includes BW and/or LArt and fail, you cannot move anyone declaed as part of the BL for that move.
Yes you can. Troops that fail a CMT can make a normal move.

You missed the point, BattleWagons and Light Artillery need to pass a CMT to move at all (and a second one for anything fancy), so gozerius is correct. If you include say light artillery in your BL and it fails the CMT to move then the BL can't move, at least not as a BL.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:01 pm

You missed the point, BattleWagons and Light Artillery need to pass a CMT to move at all (and a second one for anything fancy), so gozerius is correct. If you include say light artillery in your BL and it fails the CMT to move then the BL can't move, at least not as a BL.

The battle line can move without the BWg or Arty.

Also if BWg pass a CMT they can do a complex move as they have passed a CMT, even if expanding contracting, wheeling close to enemy, turning etc. They don't need to pass again.

Which point did I miss?

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:10 pm

philqw78 wrote: The battle line can move without the BWg or Arty.

That assumes the BWg or Ari are just tacked on to the BL, if they form an integral part of it, leaving them behind is not an option.

philqw78 wrote: Also if BWg pass a CMT they can do a complex move as they have passed a CMT, even if expanding contracting, wheeling close to enemy, turning etc. They don't need to pass again.

Yes, correct my bad. I meant to write a second CMT for a second move, but got distracted and then... oh well

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:15 pm

if they form an integral part of it,

(The BWg)

It is a bad plan, dooomed, I say Dooooomed to failure*

This would make more sense if you drove a butchers van and had an elderly scottish friend

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:07 am

If you choose to attempt to move a BL with anything that needs a CMT to move (BW, ART, undrilled other who must make a difficult move), and you fail, the entire BL cannot move. A mixed BL tests as the worst BG in it. You cannot roll a CMT for a BL and then when you fail it, choose to move the parts independantly. If a commander is with a BL when it makes a CMT he must remain with it for the entire phase. You cannot jettison parts of the BL.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:35 am

. You cannot roll a CMT for a BL and then when you fail it, choose to move the parts independantly

Yes you can.

If you fail a CMT you can make a normal move. It might not be a BL but it will look like one. Just losing the bits that failed, the BWg and Arty. IIRC The only other undrilled that could take effect for a BL is a wheel, you have a general so it won't anyway, and BL's can't turn contract or expand as that is by BG.

sagji · Post by **sagji** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:25 am

gozerius wrote:If you choose to attempt to move a BL with anything that needs a CMT to move (BW, ART, undrilled other who must make a difficult move)

As a BL must contain a commander it isn't a difficult move.

philqw78 wrote:
. You cannot roll a CMT for a BL and then when you fail it, choose to move the parts independantly
Yes you can.

If you fail a CMT you can make a normal move. It might not be a BL but it will look like one. Just losing the bits that failed, the BWg and Arty. IIRC The only other undrilled that could take effect for a BL is a wheel, you have a general so it won't anyway, and BL's can't turn contract or expand as that is by BG.

I don't think you are right.
The rules say "if a BL or BG fails its CMT it can make a simple move."
This says that if the BL fails its CMT then the BL can make a simple move - it doesn't allow parts of the BL to make moves.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:29 am

This says that if the BL fails its CMT then the BL can make a simple move - it doesn't allow parts of the BL to make moves.

Why not?

DaiSho · Post by **DaiSho** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:50 am

philqw78 wrote:
This says that if the BL fails its CMT then the BL can make a simple move - it doesn't allow parts of the BL to make moves.
Why not?

You declare what is in the Battle Line and roll your dice. If you fail then parts of the battle line would be able to make a single move, but then they wouldn't be moving as a battle line, so only one BG would be able to make a second move, or wheel or whatever other advantages you're trying to get from being a battle line.

Ian

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:05 am

One advantage that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is that for 'other undrilled' troops wheeling or moving short within 6MU is not a difficult forward move if the move is done as a BL as a BL by definition must include a commander.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:18 am

If you fail then parts of the battle line would be able to make a single move, but then they wouldn't be moving as a battle line, so only one BG would be able to make a second move

The commander must stay with the BL for the CMT and phase of CMT. If BG make separate moves no BG may make a double move as there is no commander is with what moves as an individual BG, he is still with the original BL.

(EDIT:got this wrong he remains with the same BG after test so that BG culd g twice.)

I think we need a statement of intent from the authors

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:23 am

If, however, after failing the CMT the whole BL can make a simple move the BL could then make a second move if allowed by being outside 6MU. Therefore it couldn't have any BWg or Arty with it in the first place.

daveallen · Post by **daveallen** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 3:48 pm

The answer to the problem of moving a battle line containing artillery or wagons will depend on your interpretation of this rule:

Page 43 CMT Notes, bullet point 5 :

If a commander is with a battle group or battle line when it takes a CMT, he must remain with the same battle group for the rest of the phase.

In the second part here I read "battle group" to mean "battle group or battle line" as it seems odd to have him remain with a BG but not a BL. I also infer that BGs aren't able to leave a battle line that has failed its CMT because that would prevent the commander meeting this requirement.

So (in my interpretation) if you fail the CMT the rest of the battle line cannot leave the BWg behind and make a normal move.

But even if you interpret this differently, a battle line that fails its CMT for a first move cannot make a second move because it cannot drop off BGs for the second move and because light artillery or battle wagons can only take a CMT for a second move if they have passed one for the first move. (see page 75, Second Moves).

Dave Allen

shall · Post by **shall** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:11 pm

its as drafted.

not only do you have to stay with the bl but furthermore stay with the bg within the bl. hence stay with same bg in either case.

si

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:33 pm

So does this mean that any part of the BL, any single BG, cannot make a simple move if the BL fails a CMT?

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:53 am

No. It means that if a BL includes battle wagons or lt art, and fails its CMT the whole BL cannot move. As pointed out earlier, BL are restricted to advances only, and difficult forward moves don't apply to BL (since they must include a commander). So the only time a BL would have to roll a CMT to move would be if it includes BW or LArt.

I had been mistaken when I asserted that a BL had to CMT for difficult forward moves.