Slingers vs Javelinmen

Field of Glory II is a turn-based tactical game set during the Rise of Rome from 280 BC to 25 BC.
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JaM2013
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JaM2013 »

here we go again...
You are just flat out wrong... javelins was NOT the best or most effective ranged weapon of the ancient times. Every weapon served a role and were useful in their own right. It also is rather strange that generals tended to favor bows over javelins if they had the option to use them. It was far easier to train javelin throwers as is evident by normal Roman training methods to that of normal archery training. Every evidence show how expensive archers was for professional armies and the cost of mercenary archers.
not true. For example - Celts, had access to bows, slings and javelins, yet their field armies only deployed javelins... Celtic Slingers were typically only present to defend their cities as sling was something young guys could use.. bows were very weak, women usually used them, Javelin at the other side was considered weapon of honor... this btw was true also for Germanic tribes, Engles and Jutes kept using Angon way longer than anybody else and they even forbade their kids to even touch the bows, because it would make them weaker warriors..

And for Hellenic states, even Cretans are commonly mentioned to use both bow and javelins on multiple occasions.. yet while bow was used widely, It were Peltasts who dented Hoplite superiority on the battlefield, not archers... Only ancient nations who preferred bows were actually far eastern factions.. so your overgeneralization towards bows is false.
It also is not very strange to you why the Roman sought to replace their light Velites with more archers and cavalry?!?
Roman Legion had same number of Velites as it had Hastati or Principes.. They didnt disappeared because they would not be effective, they disappeared, because around year 106 BC Rome was in dire situation and didnt had enough of citizens willing to serve in legions... therefore census requirements were dropped, and everybody was accepted to heavy infantry and equipped by the state... yet role of Velites didnt disappeared and legionaries were commonly assigned to skirmish duty, this time they were called ANTESIGNANI - those fighting in front of flags.. therefore in open order with lighter shield ( flat thureos) and light javelins...
Skirmishers main job was NEVER the actual battle... they were deployed and tactics built because they had them. As soon as they could they gladly replaced them with archers and cavalry who performed their role more efficiently. Archers provided good support fire and where excellent in defensive positions while true cavalry provided good battlefield performance as well as scouting, foraging and raiding capabilities. These were roles previously given to the Velites. An army could ever just be so big so the Generals always had to make pragmatic decisions what troops they brought if they had a choice. If these javelin troops had been so extremely effective as you make them out to be they would not reduce their numbers and eventually abandon them altogether and only bring them in small numbers as mercenaries. In eastern Roman armies they often replaced them entirely with archers and light cavalry with bows. Roman western armies also tended to use them less and less
not even close.. archers were the worst, as they couldnt defend themselves at all. Javelinmen could at least use their javelins in close combat, bowmen usually had just a dagger, and sometimes not even that. Scouting was always role of Roman Cavalry.. Velites were just added to them during second Punic war, to give badly beaten Roman Equites at least some chances when facing nimble Numidian light cavalry.. Velites were perfectly capable fighting in the melee, Rorarii/Leves for example under famous Marcus Claudius Marcellus supported his cavalry unit when facing superior Gallic infantry force and thanks to good cooperation between light infantry and cavalry, MCM managed to rout them.. at that battle he actually achieved highest Roman prize - "Spolia Optima" for killing enemy general in open combat.. no other Roman general managed to achieve that btw... MCM was also first Roman General who managed to defeat Hannibal right after Cannae..

Role of Velites after initial skirmish was to withdraw behind heavy infantry and move to flanks to support the Equites. They commonly got themselves into close combat, otherwise they would not get large 90cm wide oval shield and gladius... if anything, they were closer to Thureophoroi (who also were tasked with skirmish duty sometimes) than to Psyloi.
In regards to moving penalties I think of that as more of an act thing and timing... you just have less time to attack and that will make it less effective. It has nothing to do if the person using the weapon is moving while using it or not.
to effectively throw javelin from horseback you need to have horse running as fast as possible for best effect. speed of the horse adds to release speed of javelin, which if stationary would be even less than if you throw it from standing still - there were no stirrups, you couldn't get that much support by just trying to holding yourself on the horse by the knees - and Numidians, didnt even use saddles.. yet still, were renowned for best skirmishing cavalry of ancient era.. So having them doing 0 damage sometimes, is quite laughable.. they were fast, nimble and very dangerous because of their javelins..
Last edited by JaM2013 on Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by 76mm »

JaM2013 wrote: so it seems like phalanx was forced to fall back by the javelin barrage and only then Elephants panicked and disordered the formation. Anyway, i will search for more detailed description or actual direct source quote.
Where do you get that the “phalanx was forced to fall back by the javelin barrage”? Neither of you sources say that—one says that “archers and slingers” (ahem!) forced it back, and the other says that the phalanx was pulling back, but i would guess because Eumenes “attacked from the flanks” rather than because of javelins...
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JaM2013 »

76mm wrote:
JaM2013 wrote: so it seems like phalanx was forced to fall back by the javelin barrage and only then Elephants panicked and disordered the formation. Anyway, i will search for more detailed description or actual direct source quote.
Where do you get that the “phalanx was forced to fall back by the javelin barrage”? Neither of you sources say that—one says that “archers and slingers” (ahem!) forced it back, and the other says that the phalanx was pulling back, but i would guess because Eumenes “attacked from the flanks” rather than because of javelins...
check the links with that post, its in them. Roman legions in the centre had no slingers or archers with them, only velites... slingers and archers were present with other Greek allies. Phalanx was forced to give ground on the entire line facing Romans. Link i posted states - "The Roman legions under Domitius Ahenobarbus attacked from the front, using their darts and pila to good effect"
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by GiveWarAchance »

Slingers were quite a deadly weapon despite their spindly image in games.
Alexander the Great used them to great effect, despite only have a couple companies, to help cull the Persians at Guagamela.

I vaguely remember javelins being thrown by Ben Hurr with his Roman friend/enemy in that movie just for fun at a beam in a roof but it really shows the heavy impact of the javelins.
In modern times, I heard a stat that 23 people on average die each year from errant javelin throws during sporting events so they must have some decent hitting power too.
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JaM2013 »

main slinger advantage was that they could keep up continuous barrage of stones, or lead projectiles vs unprotected enemy - Persians, as eastern nation was fond of their archers, yet archers would be unable to fire if there are small rocks falling on their heads all the time... slingshots were ideal suppression weapons to get rid of enemy skirmishers, both foot and mounted. Roman General Publius Ventidius Bassus used slingers to effectively neutralize Parthian Horse archers for example...
After Antony had come to an agreement with Octavian off of Cape Misenum (probably in August 39[1]), he sent Ventidius with several legions in response to a Parthian invasion launched in 40 BC. Ventidius' first major success came when he defeated Quintus Labienus and Phranipates (the best of King Orodes' military commanders) at the Battle of the Cilician Gates and the Amanus Pass. After hearing of the battles while in Athens, Antony put on a public feast in the town, then proceeded to the Levant to join him.[2]

Despite this setback, the Parthians launched another invasion into Syria led by Pacorus, the son of King Orodes. Ventidius met Pacorus' huge army in the Battle of Cyrrhestica where he inflicted an overwhelming defeat which resulted in the death of Pacorus. This victory was the culmination of Ventidius' campaigns, which confined the Parthians within Media (Medes) and Mesopotamia, and psychologically avenged the losses of Crassus, particularly at Carrhae. Ventidius could have pursued the Parthians even further: but, according to Plutarch, Ventidius had concerns regarding the possible jealousy of Antony; and, he preferred to subdue those who had rebelled against Roman authority to pursuing the Parthians with his forces.[3]
But using them against heavy infantry, with their large shields, would be just a waste of ammo.. only effect would be that they would have to rise their shields..
Last edited by JaM2013 on Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by Strategiusz »

First, don' call sling slingshot. There are different things.
Second, where are some good data about velocity before a collision (not average speed of release velocity or even comparing those different things with each other) for historical javelins and slings.
Third, in the game ranged units have ammunition counted in turns. We know that a slinger has more ammunition than a javeliner and they both have ammunition for 5 turns. That means the slinger shoots more often than the javelin in one turn.

This post of to people that complain that sling is too strong comparing to javelins.
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JaM2013 »

Strategiusz wrote:First, don' call sling slingshot.
Second, where are some good data about velocity before a collision (not average speed of release velocity) for historical javelins and slings.
Third, in the game ranged units have ammunition counted in turns. We know that a slinger has more ammunition than a javeliner and they both have ammunition for 5 turns. That means the slinger shoots more often than the javelin in one turn.
im calling them slingshots because im talking about the projectile, not the weapon itself.. its not the sling that hits the enemy, but slingshot which was either stone, or made of clay, or lead..

And im well aware of more slingshots being carried by each slinger, these usually carried about 30 slingshots (70g x30 = 2.1kg of stones...) and multiple slings for various ranges... and once spent, would have to look for stones on the ground which would be way way less accurate... Javelinmen usually carried 4-6 javelins, Velites were mentioned to carry 7 of them, anyway it was common practice to run behind own lines and resupply themselves with new javelins prepared for them for exactly that.. also, it was way easier to throw back enemy javelin than search for enemy slingshot... and FYI, Numidian light cavalry carried big quivers full of javelins..sometimes on both sides.. so they could easily be carrying 10-12 or more javelins with them....

and more importantly, javelin itself had a lot higher chance to penetrate shield or armor, than any slingshot. Shields would be very effective against them especially, because they were held in arm, therefore provided dynamic deformation zone to attacking projectile.. (which is quite common mistake with all those youtube videos testing shield where they fix them somewhere and then throw things at it ) with slingshot, you really need to hit unprotected area to kill somebody... like for example already mentioned face...
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by TheGrayMouser »

GiveWarAchance wrote:
I vaguely remember javelins being thrown by Ben Hurr with his Roman friend/enemy in that movie just for fun at a beam in a roof but it really shows the heavy impact of the javelins.
In modern times, I heard a stat that 23 people on average die each year from errant javelin throws during sporting events so they must have some decent hitting power too.
I feel much vindicated wearing my hauberk to my daughters track meets!
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JaM2013 »




btw, look at those kids.. some hits are insane, but they are obviously crazy fiming it like that.. and now imagine what ancient javelinmen would be able to do...
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by edb1815 »

JaM2013 wrote:

It's not about my love of javelins.. its about my interest in ancient warfare where those javelins played very important role. After all, Legions were dominantly using these javelins in large numbers.. It always fascinated me how javelins disappeared from battlefields, yet they still were quite viable weapons so they reappeared in some form, or were used in small numbers for quite some time.. Castilian Jinettes, Almogavars, Moor cavalry, but also Irish Kerns, Norman Heavy cavalry, Vikings or Slavic/Polish infantry they all used javelins for quite some time and in some cases well beyond the medieval period..
Just curious are you equating the Pilum with the lighter javelins used by skirmishers? I don't argue the point if you call it a heavy javelin but it seems that a number of your quoted battle descriptions seem to do this like your statement above. For example:

It was a great hindrance to the Gauls in fighting,
that, when several of their bucklers had been by one stroke of the
(Roman) javelins pierced through and pinned fast together, as the point
of the iron had bent itself, they could neither pluck it out, nor, with
their left hand entangled, fight with sufficient ease; so that many,
after having long tossed their arm about, chose rather to cast away the
buckler from their hand, and to fight with their person unprotected.

This statement clearly refers to the Roman tactic of throwing their pila before charging in with the gladius, though the author uses the term javelin instead of pila. A different use of the weapon than the hit and run tactics of light foot skirmishers.

The reason I bring this up is that FOG treats some use of heavy "javelins" not as missile fire but counting in the impact phase - most particularly pila, but also other formed units that used javelins in this way. I don't think this has come up in this thread but it is something to consider regarding the effect of javelins in the game.
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JaM2013 »

I posted both Roman and Gauls javelin effects. Anyway, Veruta or hasta velitaris would not be that much weaker than Pilum because it would be thrown a lot faster than pilum, therefore would gain good kinetic energy - i have mentioned the math few times already, anyway i'll repeat - to throw a hasta velitaris (500g heavy light javelin with iron precursor) to let say 60m, you would need to have release speed up to 28m/s or even more (due to gravitation pull, air density etc) and release angle about 30 degrees (angle modern javelinmen use in their throws) anyway if you take that speed, and add the mass of the javelin, you end up with almost 200 joules of kinetic energy (best English wararrows could only get to 130-140 joules..) of course, actual impact speed would be lower, typically javelin would lose about 25% of the speed at that distance, so impact energy would be lower than that ( with 21m/s 500g heavy light javelin would still do 110 joules on impact..) at the other side, Pilum, typically 1.2kg heavy javelin, would be thrown a lot slower, reported range is usually around 25-30m, which means, pilum would have to be thrown at release speeds around 16-17m/s, which would give it 150-160 Joules of impact energy. again, Pilum would lose some of that speed at the range, anyway effect would be smaller than with lighter projectile (heavier objects has higher momentum) so its impact speed would be around 13-14m/s, which gives about 100-120 joules. so not that different from lighter javelins... which also btw explains why heavier pila were replaced by lighter tanged variants..

(and btw, im not even adding the effect of amentum, which typically increased release speed of the javelin, and would give it additional 30% KE on impact)

but that is just base math, not every javelin throw is perfect, not every throw lands properly. also men throwing down the slope would benefit from it as javelins would fall down longer (gravitation pull would speed them up longer).. this is just a basic physics, i'm not claiming its 100% accurate, its just something you can count yourself with base knowledge of math and physics. (ok, usually im using a calculator - link: http://www.csgnetwork.com/kineticenergycalc.html)
Last edited by JaM2013 on Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by GiveWarAchance »

TheGrayMouser wrote:
GiveWarAchance wrote:
I vaguely remember javelins being thrown by Ben Hurr with his Roman friend/enemy in that movie just for fun at a beam in a roof but it really shows the heavy impact of the javelins.
In modern times, I heard a stat that 23 people on average die each year from errant javelin throws during sporting events so they must have some decent hitting power too.
I feel much vindicated wearing my hauberk to my daughters track meets!
You should upgrade to full plate with a shield if you want to be safe from those javelins thrown by the kids. You'll feel a bit odd, but better to be safe.
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JaM2013 »

GiveWarAchance wrote:
TheGrayMouser wrote:
GiveWarAchance wrote:
I vaguely remember javelins being thrown by Ben Hurr with his Roman friend/enemy in that movie just for fun at a beam in a roof but it really shows the heavy impact of the javelins.
In modern times, I heard a stat that 23 people on average die each year from errant javelin throws during sporting events so they must have some decent hitting power too.
I feel much vindicated wearing my hauberk to my daughters track meets!
You should upgrade to full plate with a shield if you want to be safe from those javelins thrown by the kids. You'll feel a bit odd, but better to be safe.
no kidding.. its beyond me how some people are careless.. just look at youtube and search for javelin incidents... some should be nominated for Darwin prize...
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JaM2013 »

One thing about Ankyle/Amentum. It practically serves same purpose as Atlatl for Aztecs.. same effect applies, both increase the release speed of javelin by "extending the length of arm". Atlatl tend to be a bit more efficient than leather loop, but principle is the same. Romans and Greeks always used ankyles with javelins, there are ton of mentions of them being used by Livy, Plutarch and others, as well as ancient art portrays them quite commonly too.
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JorgenCAB »

@JaM2013

Comon... are you trolling me now??? you are twisting my works to suit your interpretation... when I speak about armies moving to bows it was after the introduction of eastern influences and bow making, Rome often used eastern archers and later trained their own archers. I'm not talking about Gallic bows that were nothing but weak hunting bows. Even the western powers eventually switched to bows with introduction of real war bows that had draw weight in about 80-120lbs or so but now we get more into the Dark Ages. Arguing that Javeline was the best weapon because it was in a tiny corner of the world is a bit of a stretch.

I was talking about the transition from javeline to bows and cavalry. Once you had good light cavalry they performed to role of scouts, raiders etc much better and provided better punch in battle as well. Combined with more archers then javelin armed skirmishers were not needed in the same quantities anymore. It is a fact that Romans tended to use javelin armed skirmishers less and less since they deployed other troops as time went on after the Marian reform. I know about the added role of the light roman infantry used after the Marian reform. These were deployed as needed and just a testament of Roman discipline and military brilliance. If they had the option to give them good bows and they could actually use them they probably would have in many cases, but they didn't at this time, but they trained their own archers eventually.

I know that Roman cavalry was their main scouting force but Velites were often given horses for that purpose to, I even thing they used horses to some extent during battles but more as mounted infantry. Other roles of the skirmishers was pre battle maneuvers to secure terrain for armies to deploy in or to deny the enemy good terrain in which to deploy. This is often when skirmishers fought other skirmishers, javeline armed troops excelled at this., but so did light cavalry forces to. Most skirmisher was also vulnerable to archer fire since they did not have that much protection, something the Roman felt when fighting against the eastern armies that had more archers

The Roman Pilum only got lost when the discipline and training of Roman armies faltered. The Roman use of Pila, Scutom and Sword could simply not be maintained with discipline and training became poorer. Troops were essentially becoming more static and defensive spearmen with the cavalry taking up the slack. Armour also became more widespread and better so swords in general was no good enough and seen more and more as a side weapon to larger and larger spears or pole-arms of different kinds such as the Dane-Ax and so forth.

Javelins was still around and used by some in similar way as the Romans, But without the Roman discipline cultures such as the Vikings could not get the same effect.

Will you get more force from a throw than a thrust of a spear, just asking... do you think that every hit is 100& effective or rather around 30-60% effective given everything moves and defends itself?!?
Last edited by JorgenCAB on Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JaM2013 »

im not talking about dark era, i'm talking about era of Roman Republic and early Empire.. bows were insignificant then. and btw, 80-120lb bows would still not get to the level of kinetic energy javelins produced. For that, you need English Warbow, shooting war arrow called quarterpounder.. arrows used in eastern parts were still very light, usually not heavier than 70g... and even in medieval times, eastern archers were unable to deal with mailed knights, which was apparently not a problem for javelin throwing Castilian jinette..
During the 3rd Crusade, Bahā'al-Dīn, Saladin's biographer, wrote that the Norman crusaders were:

...drawn up in front of the cavalry, stood firm as a wall, and every foot-soldier wore a vest of thick felt and a coat of mail so dense and strong that our arrows made no impression on them... I saw some with from one to ten arrows sticking in them, and still advancing at their ordinary pace without leaving the ranks.
https://myarmoury.com/feature_mail.html

And Yes, you would get a lot more power with throw than with thrust, because your trajectory is longer, and ankyle would extend your arm to deliver more speed. look at any atlatl videos on youtube, effect is the same. Look at any javelin throws videos with skilled athletes.. motion is way different than normal thrust.. even overarm slide, like the one made by Thrand doesnt get anyhow close to impact energy generated by the throw.. Its simple math formula - you know distance, you know the weight and angle of the release... its easy to get the impact energy out of it..


And again, its not true that Pila disappeared completely. Germanic tribes adopted it and called it Angon. and these were used up till early medieval period.. but again, this game is about Republican Rome, my concern is towards how javelinmen are portrayed in this game..
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by JorgenCAB »

JaM2013 wrote:im not talking about dark era, i'm talking about era of Roman Republic and early Empire.. bows were insignificant then. and btw, 80-120lb bows would still not get to the level of kinetic energy javelins produced. For that, you need English Warbow, shooting war arrow called quarterpounder.. arrows used in eastern parts were still very light, usually not heavier than 70g...

And Yes, you would get a lot more power with throw than with thrust, because your trajectory is longer, and ankyle would extend your arm to deliver more speed. look at any atlatl videos on youtube, effect is the same. Look at any javelin throws videos with skilled athletes.. motion is way different than normal thrust.. even overarm slide, like the one made by Thrand doesnt get anyhow close to impact energy generated by the throw.. Its simple math formula - you know distance, you know the weight and angle of the release... its easy to get the impact energy out of it..


And again, its not true that Pila disappeared completely. Germanic tribes adopted it and called it Angon. and these were used up till early medieval period.. but again, this game is about Republican Rome, my concern is towards how javelinmen are portrayed in this game..
Yes I know you are talking about Republic era and the Javelin was a decent weapon and lightly equipped skirmishers with javeline are repeatedly described in sources as distraction units used for disrupting enemy forces not routing them. This meant that casualties must have been rather low. Most formations routed after about 10-15% losses and most skirmisher force would not come near to those figures since this usually required units to engage in melee fighting.

From a larger perspective then the higher rate if fire of archers and slingers they will roughly achieve the same effect as javelin armed forces. If it is exactly a 1:1 ratio or different I can't say, I just say it is plausible conjecture to make. In my opinion javelin troops was more commonly used because they were better in Melee and could carry shields thus had better protection and better able to hold and seize ground, Archer could not do this very well.

I know that Pila or version of them survived to some degree, I just gave Vikings as one culture that used javelins in a similar fashion even if they didn't use Pila. Their use just never reached the same level of refinement and usage as before.

In regards to throwing you can certainly get more energy if you stretch the body and are able to take a few steps forward but you loose energy and speed rather quickly so the impact at 20 meters might be roughly the same, but I have not studied that in detail. I only know that my thrust and throw give roughly equal results using a throwing spear. In combat you will also never be able to make perfect thrusts but when you throw you are likely to transfer near max energy every time.
Hits are still going to hit with roughly 30-60% force in more than 99% of the cases due to targets movement and tendency to react with the force rather than against it, especially a trained warrior would do that... hence better troops receive less losses in reality. Think of angled armour on tanks in WWI and that is how a shild or body behave in reality when hit with something. You can never expect maximum force to transfer to whatever you hit, that would be a rare occurrence.
When you fight with weapons and spar you know this to be true since it is very different to be hit while standing still and brace against the blow or beng hit when you move around... VERY different. The same is true for thrown object... I know because we have tried that for fun with blunted javelins.
Last edited by JorgenCAB on Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by grumblefish »

Why do archers outrange slingers in this game, considering that Xenophon says slingers outranged archers and could effectively keep them at bay?
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by TheGrayMouser »

grumblefish wrote:Why do archers outrange slingers in this game, considering that Xenophon says slingers outranged archers and could effectively keep them at bay?
Which archers (using which bows) Is the question though... Greek, Persian , Cretan?


Pretty interesting article on somewhat recent finds in Britain, link below....

they estimate 200 meters with a 50 gram bullet....

https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/ ... nswark.htm
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Re: Slingers vs Javelinmen

Post by hjc »

TheGrayMouser wrote:Pretty interesting article on somewhat recent finds in Britain, link below....

https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/ ... nswark.htm
Interesting, from that article:
Other experimenters in the field have noted that a 50g Roman bullet propelled from a sling has only slightly less kinetic energy than a shot from a .44 Magnum!
I liked the shots with a hole to create a sound in flight.
My experience with gravel (obviously a rougher surface than lead) used as shot is that they will whine or buzz through the air, and ricochets can sound uncannily like bullets.
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