Slingers vs Javelinmen

[JaM2013]

Arent slingers a bit more effective than they should be? Javelin had much higher penetration than slighshot, therefore actual damage done from javelins should be a lot higher than from slings, which were not even able to penetrate shields.. Yet in all videos i saw so far on youtube, it looks like Slingers are making a lot more damage than Javelinmen, who are handicapped by a lot shorter range..


for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpk5n6D9sWQ

here, typically he gets 20-25 casualties from Slinger salvo, but only 14-20 from Javelin barrage.. if anything, i would expect these numbers to be reversed.. Slingshots were good as nuisance weapon, keeping enemy hidden behind his shield.. but javelins, especially Roman verutum or hasta velitaris was able to pierce shield and wound/kill men behind (used precursor same as Pilum)

[rbodleyscott]

Actually, in the game they do about the same damage, unless the target is elephants, in which case javelins do more damage. Javelinmen have shorter range and carry less ammunition so although their individual penetration power would be greater, they won't all shoot each turn.

[JaM2013]

which is exactly why im mentioning it - javelins should be just a bit more effective, as javelinmen as unit are penalized by short range.. if slingers are as effective, but have range 2, nobody would bother taking javelinmen, which is something i noticed in gameplay videos.. I'm not saying difference has to be huge, but some advantage should be there, becase javelins were actually capable penetrating armor and shields, while slingshot would have no chance dealing with shields, and so did arrows. (frontal barrages from slingers should not do that big damage - shields were usually good enough to stop slingshots. instead, slingers were best used either against cavalry, or other skirmishers who did not carry large shields)

Gameplay wise, i think arrows should do the least of damage, but have longest range, slings in the middle and javelins being short range shield piercing weapons,therefore most effective (but most dangerous to use if you dont manage to evade)


Ammo wise, javelineers would usually carry just 4-6 javelins, but they would have additional javelins ready nearby, plus they would often throw enemy javelins back to owners..

[Soar]

In the game, javelinmen have the Light Spear capability, which makes then significantly less vulnerable to charges. This is especially relevant in difficult terrain, where heavier units get significantly penalized on top of that. Since light foot can't fire from behind friendly units in this game, I don't think the extra range that other ranged units get is all that huge an advantage.

Units that use heavy shield-piercing javelins, like the Roman pila or the Iberian soliferrum, are modeled as Impact Foot type in the game (reflecting their tactic of throwing their javelins during a charge).

[JaM2013]

some data bout javelins and slings

- there were multiple types of light javelin used by skirmishers in ancient era. most advanced javelins were used by Romans and Iberians. these javelins were made with thin iron precursor, very similar to Pilum, but a bit shorter. javelins were typically around 300-400g heavy, had amentum/ankyle leather strip attached, so they could be thrown at ranges around 50-60m reliably. release speed for these javelins was around 25-26m/s, which gave them kinetic energy around 90-120 joules.

- standard slingshot was typically 40g heavy lead pebble, which could be thrown at speeds over 30-35m/s, which gave it kinetic energy 25-30 joules. these light projectiles could be thrown at long distances, anyway they had minimal kinetic energy, and were mostly used to harass enemy (archer cannot shoot his bow when there are rocks falling on him). Of course, heavier slingshot were also used for short range. 100-150g stones were used, with release speed around 30m/s with kinetic energy around 60-70 joules dealing blunt force trauma, and being dangerous when they hit body. yet they couldnt pierce the shields

- standard war arrow of ancient times was 40-60g heavy, and was shot at release speeds around 45-50m/s (Kinetic Energy=50-60 joules). Eastern archers who used composite/recursive bows sometimes used heavier arrows (70g) with release speed around 50-55m/s (KE=100-110 joules)

for comparation, heavy javelin, like Pilum, was typically 1-1.2kg heavy, and was thrown at release speeds around 16-20m/s which gave them kinetic energy around 150-200 joules. heaviest socketted pilum was almost 2kg heavy, but due to its weight its release speed would be a lot slower (12-14m/s maybe, KE around 200 joules), but it was multipurpose weapon, that could be also used as spear.

So, if you look at these values, Javelins were practically the only weapon reliably capable penetrating armor, and therefore could be used against heavily protected enemies with good effect, while slingshots were nothing but harassing weapon, used against unprotected enemies. Romans used slingers on flanks, typically engaging enemy skirmishers, Bassus for example used slingers to counter Parthian Horse archers with great effect during his sucesful war against Parthians..

In the game, javelinmen have the Light Spear capability, which makes then significantly less vulnerable to charges. This is especially relevant in difficult terrain, where heavier units get significantly penalized on top of that. Since light foot can't fire from behind friendly units in this game, I don't think the extra range that other ranged units get is all that huge an advantage.

Units that use heavy shield-piercing javelins, like the Roman pila or the Iberian soliferrum, are modeled as Impact Foot type in the game (reflecting their tactic of throwing their javelins during a charge).

problem with this is in the fact that some light javelins were capable defeating shields. Roman Verutum used by velites was practically a miniature pillum, while Iberian skirmishers used very similar javelin themselves (quite possible Romans adopted Iberian light javelin after their experience with them)


My main concern is in fact how many casualties Slingers can get by attacking heavy infantry from the front.. number of casualties is way too high, for a projectile that was unable to pierce shields. at the other side, javelin, which was capable penetrating shields, deals not as much damage as 4x weaker slingshot.


(regarding those numbers - i got these while i researched this topic for Rome 2 Total Realism mod for R2TW few years back. spent quite a lot of time studying various materials, bought quite a number of books and discussed the topic with some published authors on ancient warfare.)

[JaM2013]

does FoG2 have same mechanics implemented as in P&S to differentiate muskets from crossbows? maybe same thing should be done for javelins vs slingshots and arrows.

[rbodleyscott]

does FoG2 have same mechanics implemented as in P&S to differentiate muskets from crossbows? maybe same thing should be done for javelins vs slingshots and arrows.

Each missile weapon has its own POAs.

[JaM2013]

ok, so in that case, i just repeat myself, as i think you should consider adjusting javelins to have higher damage potential than slingshots or arrows. amount of damage should also scale based on range to target, while base damage at short range should be highest for javelins. Slingshots and arrows should have some bonuses against cavalry and light infantry though. (horses didnt liked being bombarded by stones or arrows)

so just increase POA for javelins a bit, with arrows and slings being lower, so their effect on armored opponents especially from the front would be small. (even Parthians at Carrhae didnt deal that many casualties from frontal attacks, in one study i saw Parthians fired over 4 million arrows and only scored around 500 kills and 3000 wounded with them, which gives you over 1000 arrows for single casualty, or 8000 arrows for single dead )

[jomni]

Deleted

[JaM2013]

i'm moving my question here, as i think its better fitted to this discussion:

is there a right flank penalty in this game applied for "unshielded" side? Shields held in left arm would typically give more protection to the front and left side than to the right, which was usually why in Greek Hoplite Phalanx strongest units were put on the right flank to protect the weakest part of the line from attacks. Technically speaking i think there should be a bonus for right side attacks against shield-less flank almost as big as rear attacks get (but not the same of course) At the other side, any ranged hits hitting unit from right flank or rear, should deal a lot more damage, than they would do from front or front-left.

[rbodleyscott]

i'm moving my question here, as i think its better fitted to this discussion:

is there a right flank penalty in this game applied for "unshielded" side? Shields held in left arm would typically give more protection to the front and left side than to the right, which was usually why in Greek Hoplite Phalanx strongest units were put on the right flank to protect the weakest part of the line from attacks. Technically speaking i think there should be a bonus for right side attacks against shield-less flank almost as big as rear attacks get (but not the same of course) At the other side, any ranged hits hitting unit from right flank or rear, should deal a lot more damage, than they would do from front or front-left.

Currently there isn't. The game is due for release in a week - we will not be making untested changes to it before then.

I suspect that you may want to mod in some of your suggestions. Some of these - the javelins and slings thing - would be relatively easy to mod in. Others, such as the unshielded flank thing, would require more complex scripting.

[JaM2013]

thanks

[Latro]

Talking about shields, I noticed in the videos that velites did not have a noticable edge over plain javelinmen, in close combat.

How are shields and their different sizes factored in the calculations?

[rbodleyscott]

Talking about shields, I noticed in the videos that velites did not have a noticable edge over plain javelinmen, in close combat.

How are shields and their different sizes factored in the calculations?

Velites are treated as Protected, other javelinmen as Unprotected.

[Latro]

Ok. So there is no differentiation between, say a pelte and a scutum? Both just count as 'protected'?

[rbodleyscott]

Ok. So there is no differentiation between, say a pelte and a scutum? Both just count as 'protected'?

This was true in the tabletop version of the game (and FOG1), but not in FOG2.

A small shield - e.g. as carried by Scots Irish troops, or Pictish spearmen - would count as "Lightly Protected" - i.e. half-way between Unprotected and Protected.

Armour ratings actually range from 0-300 so units can be set at whatever rating seems appropriate. The words are just there to give the player some idea.

Examples:
Unprotected 0
Lightly Protected 25
Protected 50
Some men armoured 75
Armoured 100
Fully armoured cataphracts 300

Or anything in between for troops with mixed levels of protection.

[Latro]

Ah. Sounds good
I was a bit worried, because tabletops, like DBA, kind of oversimplified factors like shields and armour. Sacrificing it for speed of play.
It did make a battle feel more like rock scissors paper though.
In this day and age, however, tabletop style computer games can of course calculate things much easier and you can take more factors into consideration.

[rbodleyscott]

Note that the protection level takes into account both shields and armour. So Roman Auxiliary archers with mail shirt but no shield would count as Protected, not Armoured.

[Latro]

Oh, I thought your 'protected' meant the shield and that armour was a seperate rating.
Shieldless auxiliary archers would, in reality, fare badly against shielded unarmoured troops, in close combat.
In the game they could have the same protection rating, I gather.

[rbodleyscott]

Oh, I thought your 'protected' meant the shield and that armour was a seperate rating.
Shieldless auxiliary archers would, in reality, fare badly against shielded unarmoured troops, in close combat.

And they will in the game too, because protection is only a minor part of the overall close combat interaction. You really need to see how the whole combat system works to see how it gives the correct interaction between different troop-types.