Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design
Still thinking wheter to reduce the -5 fuel penalty at all. The loss of the Ploiesti oil fields in late August 1944 proved to be decisive. The failure of the two last German offensives, the Ardennes and Spring Awakening, were both largely due to the lack of fuel, and interestingly, both were aimed at capturing at least some oil deposits or oil fields.P210 wrote:Couple of comments,
The fuel penalty is rough but justifiable. Little less than -5 per turn might be better. And I wish it would not go into negative side.
from "Failure Of German Logistics During The German Ardennes Offensive Of 1944"During the build-up for the (Ardennes) offensive, the OKW would restructure units from motorized to horse-drawn or bicycle or walking due to lack of fuel.
In mid-August, weekly rail loading by the Reichsbahn was almost 900,000 cars. This is significant since many of the units and most of the supplies for the Ardennes Offensive would be moved by rail to the built-up area.
Which can also explain why the air units are not affected by the loss of the oil fields.In 1943, Germany's oil production was slightly more than six million tons: 25 percent form Germany, Austria, Poland, Alsace, and 25 percent from the eighteen synthetic oil production plants... these (synthetic) plants provided over 80 percent of the aviation fuel. Germany received the remaining 50 percent of oil from the Ploesti oil fields in Romania.
Yeah, so after some juggling, I managed to issue a (partial) AI zone to the city of Stalingrad. (By the way, the same zone is already being used for the Stalingrad counter offensive units to Kursk and for German unit positions to encircle Kiev. Hopefully, it will not cause unwanted side-effects.Brontoburguer wrote:When I meant Stalingrad it was not exactly because of the city importance per se, it was more because I think the main soviet oil supply line from the Caucasus came from the Volga, passing through that city. For the Germans, they would have just to set foot on one side of the river to cut that line, they actually didn't had to take that city. Yet, as you know, Hitler didn't saw things that way, so the battle developed the way it did, and it was quite a mistake of the Germans.
But since we're talking about a game, to make things simplier to the players, I think just taking the city of Stalingrad would better represent the movement of cutting those Soviet oil supplies I'm talking about. Of course the Soviet would have made use of some other route, like ships in the Caspian Sea, for example. But I personally don't think they would have the logistics to keep up a operation like this as it was before, with the trains and the barks.
)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaija ... rld_War_IIWiki:
Transportation of oil and oil products from Baku to petroleum storage depots and to oil refineries of various regions of the country was implemented through the sea and then by railway roads. In July of the same year navigation in the Volga was stopped because of entrance of German troops to Volgograd (Stalingrad). The main railway roads along which oil and oil products were sent from Baku to the front were blocked by German troops. German-fascist troops were at the gates of the Caucasus, they tended to Baku petroleum and Baku itself was under threat of war. As the direct road for oil transportation was blocked, a new way for transportation of oil products to Stalingrad had to be found. It was decided to send oil products through the only way through Krasnovodsk, and then through the railway road of Middle Asia and Kazakhstan to Stalingrad. But there was not enough amount of cisterns in the railway road of Middle Asia for transportation of oil. And then Baku administration of the sector had a risky solution for that: to send cisterns of oil products afloat by tugs to Krasnovodsk along the sea and then to transport then to railway road.
In September, 1942 a military situation was announced in the South Caucasus and situation in Baku became critical. Only 1,6 million tones of oil was sent instead of 6 million tones till the end of navigation. Special oil wells, into which were pumped hundred thousand tones of topped oil, were allocated.
If you did everything correctly, you should be able to start a new campaign in the same way as if you would do with the unmodded game. Just click on NEW GAME in the main screen and choose whichever year you want to start the war. Especially for first time players, Poland 1939 is recommended.chesspanzer wrote:Hello McGuba,
I am a newcomer with PzC and after some time playing Allied Corps campaign and MP matches, now I am wondering about "Mods". I have followed your installation instructions but I am not sure what is expected to start a new game. Only way I have got to start is loading one of four saved game files and optionally restarting. By the by your Mod looks absolutely awesome!!
Could you help me with starting new scenario or campaign?
Greetings.
I am not disagreeing on the significance of the loss of the oil fields, but of the mechanic of its implementation in the mod. I do not think assigning a penalty that the game engine is unable to properly calculate (i.e., fuel counters running less than zero) makes sense. Moreover, it just makes playing the mod post-Ploesti frustrating and unfun (who wants to spend their time calculating hexes and fuel count for each move of each unit?). If you insist on keeping the penalty as implemented, then I'd at least advocate for a more gradual approach than is currently modeled. I also think explaining to the player the importance of keeping Ploesti would make sense (maybe through a warning that is triggered when the Russians approach the "border"?). As it is, I'd rather lose Berlin than Ploesti!Still thinking wheter to reduce the -5 fuel penalty at all. The loss of the Ploiesti oil fields in late August 1944 proved to be decisive. The failure of the two last German offensives, the Ardennes and Spring Awakening, were both largely due to the lack of fuel, and interestingly, both were aimed at capturing at least some oil deposits or oil fields.
Yes, it is possible, but I think it would be too late. And I have no available AI zones to add an extended "danger zone" in which the message would appear if the SU units reach it.I also think explaining to the player the importance of keeping Ploesti would make sense (maybe through a warning that is triggered when the Russians approach the "border"?).
Actually, however weird it sounds, the Germans had more or less the same opinion as in spring 1945, instead of concentrating all the elite SS Panzer units with their shiny new King Tigers and Panthers for the defence of Berlin, they wasted these last invaluable resources in the ill-fated Spring Awakening offensive which aimed to retake at least some of the much less significant oil fields within reach in South Hungary, with the possible (but largely unrealistic) option to continue the offensive to retake Ploesti as well. It indicates quite well how desperate the oil situation was in the final stage of the war and I just wanted to better simulate it.As it is, I'd rather lose Berlin than Ploesti!
Certainly, in therms of modern warfare, Ploesti would be more important than Berlin. Starting a campaign in 44 you can't do almost nothing about it besides watch. It's a lost game. The last chance the Germans had to keep the war up a bit more was before Operation Citatel. After that Kaputt.Ceek wrote:Still thinking wheter to reduce the -5 fuel penalty at all. The loss of the Ploiesti oil fields in late August 1944 proved to be decisive. The failure of the two last German offensives, the Ardennes and Spring Awakening, were both largely due to the lack of fuel, and interestingly, both were aimed at capturing at least some oil deposits or oil fields.
I am not disagreeing on the significance of the loss of the oil fields, but of the mechanic of its implementation in the mod. I do not think assigning a penalty that the game engine is unable to properly calculate (i.e., fuel counters running less than zero) makes sense. Moreover, it just makes playing the mod post-Ploesti frustrating and unfun (who wants to spend their time calculating hexes and fuel count for each move of each unit?). If you insist on keeping the penalty as implemented, then I'd at least advocate for a more gradual approach than is currently modeled. I also think explaining to the player the importance of keeping Ploesti would make sense (maybe through a warning that is triggered when the Russians approach the "border"?). As it is, I'd rather lose Berlin than Ploesti!
Good catch for the "winter" penalty in March 1943. I will fix it in the next version. By any chance, do you remember what other inapropriate messages you had?empedocles wrote:-Barbarrossa finally began on March 1943 at which time I got much of the messages from 1941 at that time. One thing that looks like a bug is the fact that I got the Winter penalty of -1 in March 1943!
Yes, unfortunately it seems like you are running out of time to fully defeat the British. Probably you should have risked a landing in Syria/Palestina in 1942/43, maybe after the capture of England the latest. However, at least you could conquer Britain which means you did not have to worry about the Allied air offensive in the west and their invasion of France. In order to stop or at least slow down the Red Army you should transfer all available forces to the east, I guess. Also, try to purchase and deploy cheap but farily effective units like Hetzers or towed AT guns in numbers and entrech infantry in cities. If you have the Caucasus oil fields and Tunesia, Rome, Paris, etc, you should have a decent flow of prestige in each turn to allow it. Also, you can count on some late war help like some gift Volkssturm units.-The americans are no more and In north africa I am about to break through El Alamein. Unfortunately, there is no way I can advance into Siria.
mmm. One bug I found was the following.Good catch for the "winter" penalty in March 1943. I will fix it in the next version. By any chance, do you remember what other inapropriate messages you had?
-The americans are no more and In north africa I am about to break through El Alamein. Unfortunately, there is no way I can advance into Siria.
Which is indeed a bug.empedocles wrote:mmm. One bug I found was the following.
Scottish partisans retook Edimbrugh and the next turns I see a swarm of bombers invade germany and france. When I say swarm, I mean dozens. This happened 2 years after I defeated the Brithish in England.
There should be a few long range US air units spawning as overseas aid in case the British partisans can retake some areas, but certainly not dozens. Will fix it in the next version.Historically Finland quit the war in Sept 1944 as they realized that the Axis cannot win the war against the USSR and they wanted to avoid further losses and/or Soviet occupation. Luckily for them, the main focus of the Soviets was the capture of Berlin and Eastern Europe, in which they were in a race with the Western Allies, so they agreed to the armisitice on their terms. In the mod this event is simulated in a way that if the Axis does not hold Moscow and Leningrad in fall 1944, the Finns will quit as it means that the situation in the east is not very good and an Axis victory over the SU by turn 99 is unlikely.Also, I didn't understood why Finland quit the war. Maybe one message with a warning would have helped me to prepare for the dissapearence of their units.
Actually this warning message proved to be right, as you were forced to withdraw in the end, if I am right. This message comes up if the Soviets still have a number of victory objectives at that late date and thus they are likely to take back the initiative and go on the offensive. It might be a bit early, though, but in order to prepare for it, it has to be, I guess.One thing weird I noticed was the message saying that we shall not let the soviet invade germany. It was a warning message saying tan the Eastern horde was due to advance west, which is true, but at that time I was still fighting in Leningrad, Minsk, Kiev and Rostov. Felt pretty much an exxageration at that time.
So I guess you made a draw in the end. Which is indeed a nice achievement as historically the Axis was totally defeated. I agree that a bit more focus on the Brits and a bit less on the Soviets could have changed the result. Maybe next time.After 99 turns the game is finished. And so I am.
Yes, I have been planning that for a time and I am fully aware that currently it is very unbalanced in favour of the Allies and as such not suitable for multiplay. But, after all the Allies outproduced the Axis at least 3-4 times in just about everything so this is how it should be. However, in the next version I intend to make it more accessible to average and casual players by providing two downgraded alternative scenarios and the easiest one might be good for multiplayer mode as well. But I will also need to check the in game messages as at the moment they only appear to the Axis player. I have to make sure that some messages appear to the Allied player too, and some game mechanics like encirclements have to be changed as well.AfrikaKorpsSoldat wrote:Any chance of a Multiplayer balanced version coming out soon? I really like this map. It's bigger than the other 1941 map and it looks like it would be fun if it was a little more balanced.
Hi, and thanks.VanBishop wrote:McGuba,
this is not a mod, this is a masterpiece.
For even more challange you can try to beat it on Rommel or by loading one of the saved games in which you can take over at a later historical stage, such as Stalingrad or Kursk. Obviously, the later you start, the harder it is to achieve any kind of victory or even a draw.Seriously, you have given PC a new lease on life, at least to me. Having played and won on Mainstein each and every DLC I did NOT find this one TOO hard, but a strong challenge, as it has to be (I played on general as suggested).
Over time I have added a large number of scripts to make the AI "smarter". These are aimed to make it more responsive to the different strategies of the players. What I could not really do is to increase its tactical skills because the hard coded nature of AI behaviour.Even the AI felt a little smarter than usual, the offensive at Kursk and the defence of Egypt were actually excellent.
There is some level of abstraction here. Due to the large scale, a bunker or fort unit in this mod does not only represent a simple, or even a number of bunkers, but a whole fortified area. Such a fortified area can send out scout parties, observation balloons, possibly even small recon planes, and might have a good relationship with the local population and the partisans. It all means invaluable information. Therefore it should have a better situational awareness and control of the surrounding area than a standard field unit.a) Line of sight.
A bunker on the English shore can actually see what is going on in Paris. I know it’s a matter of scale, but that’s too much. Same for submarines. A submarine around Sicily can detect a Tac Bomber in the Adriatic Sea, that’s too powerful. My take would be to limit LOS to two exes. That’s 50/70 Kms after all.
Actually the Yugoslav partisans were quite numerous. And according to Yugoslav sources they suffered some 700,000 losses between 1941-45. Which is quite close to the one million that you calculated. And despite these losses, they were not defeated, but became victorious. Most likely it would have required even more, maybe well over a million casualties caused to fully defeat them.b) Partisans.
The annoying commandos are absolutely fine. More of those! But I have destroyed over 40 partisans divisions in the Balkans only, most of them with a star. That’s over a million soldiers, fully armed and well-trained.
In fact by late 1944 there some 650,000 Yugoslav partisans, which is many times more than just 2 divisions.That’s too much and a-historical. 2 divisions, in 1944, in Yugoslavia would be enough. Anywhere else, just commandos with no experience.
In this case it does not really mean "evade" but rather an unsuccessful mine clearing run. This mechanic is hard coded and cannot be modified, anyway.c) Mines.
I understand they are modelled after submarines, but, no, a mine cannot evade, it’s quite static by default
Not possible, hard coded mechanic.Possible ideas, not sure if they can be implemented:
- Russians should not get rugged defence at least for the first month
As far as I understand, you have managed to complete the invasion of Britain in 1943. Which means you did it before the long range escort fighters historically appeared in early 1944. Historically the American bombers suffered very heavy losses in 1943, and British bomber crews had less than one in three chance to survive the war. The appearence of the long range P-51 Mustang, which could follow the bombers to Berlin and back, had a huge impact. If you want to experience the real horror of the late war years just try the 1943 or 1944 save game to start.- Allied bombers should have some fighters with them. I managed to keep them at bay just by placing recon planes on top of German cities
I did not know about this guy, but will check it out, thanks. There will be some more historical heroes in v1.9, anyway.- The Italian tank sent to Russia (appears in Rumania) should have a hero (Giovanni Messe, +1 Def, +1 Mov)
It's an honor, Sir!Hi, and thanks.
I don't like a challenge per se, I enjoy historical accuracy! And miss out the joy of playing the previous scenarios? forget about itFor even more challange you can try to beat it on Rommel or by loading one of the saved games in which you can take over at a later historical stage, such as Stalingrad or Kursk. Obviously, the later you start, the harder it is to achieve any kind of victory or even a draw.
I have seen that happening. The suicidal counterattacks to retake Moscow. The blind charge of Patton's army in Tunisia.What I could not really do is to increase its tactical skills because the hard coded nature of AI behaviour.
I still can't see a submarine spotting airplanes in an airfield, across a mountain chain, but I guess it's for the greater goodA submarine unit represents a flotilla (or a wolfpack) of approximately 20 U-boats/submarines, which can spread out in a larger area and not only concentrated in the hex where the unit actually is. Therefore they can cover/scout a larger area around them.
I stand corrected, to my defense I can say that I meant to write 2 divisions in 1941 rather than 44, which, by the way is what your source says. Also, I killed 40 divisions between September 41 till the end of 43, and a few more in early 44, but, according to the wiki roughly 200k got killed/wounded by the end of 43 (including 1940 and 9 months of 41), and 200k more were still active. So, as far I can see, it's still at least twice as many. Most partisan activity in Western Europe and the Balkans should almost cease if Great Britain has been conquered, but this is a what if. On the other hand, I only had a single commando appear in Poland throughout the war and not a single partisan division.
Actually the Yugoslav partisans were quite numerous. And according to Yugoslav sources they suffered some 700,000 losses between 1941-45. Which is quite close to the one million that you calculated. And despite these losses, they were not defeated, but became victorious. Most likely it would have required even more, maybe well over a million casualties caused to fully defeat them.
[/quote]If you want to experience the real horror of the late war years just try the 1943 or 1944 save game to start.
Sure, but the later starting points are also historically accurate. And since you have played through the whole campaign already you would not really miss anything. But fair enough, it is only an option as previously many players asked for it (later starting points), and I am aware that it is not every one's cup of tea.VanBishop wrote:I don't like a challenge per se, I enjoy historical accuracy! And miss out the joy of playing the previous scenarios? forget about itFor even more challange you can try to beat it on Rommel or by loading one of the saved games in which you can take over at a later historical stage, such as Stalingrad or Kursk. Obviously, the later you start, the harder it is to achieve any kind of victory or even a draw.
Actually, when it comes to the Red Army I do not really mind suicidal offensives as they often did so, and their losses were much higher in most cases. It is more of a problem when it comes to the Western Allies (even though they also got some whipping at the Kasserine pass and elsewhere). But unfortunately the AI's tactical thinking (or lack thereof) cannot be improved greatly.I have seen that happening. The suicidal counterattacks to retake Moscow. The blind charge of Patton's army in Tunisia.
Certainly, naval units should not see more than 1 hex of ground terrain, but again, it is more of a game mechics problem which cannot be modded. The only alternative would be to reduce their spotting to 1-2 hex, but then it would wastly reduce the AI's situational awareness at sea, ruining naval war. Therefore I went for a compromise and we have to try to live with their god's eye. If all else fails, you can imagine that they get survaillence info from hidden partisans or inserted agents.I still can't see a submarine spotting airplanes in an airfield, across a mountain chain, but I guess it's for the greater good
Which probably means that in your longplay you were more successful than the Axis coalition historically (you had killed most of them by 43, and not just half of them as historically). But you were more successful elsewhere, too, isn't it?I stand corrected, to my defense I can say that I meant to write 2 divisions in 1941 rather than 44, which, by the way is what your source says. Also, I killed 40 divisions between September 41 till the end of 43, and a few more in early 44, but, according to the wiki roughly 200k got killed/wounded by the end of 43 (including 1940 and 9 months of 41), and 200k more were still active. So, as far I can see, it's still at least twice as many.
Anyway, partisan units are set to spawn with some randomness, so it it also possible that you just had bad luck and had more to spawn earlier. Most should appear from 1943/44, as historically. The capture of Britain and/or the USSR does have a negative effect on the number of new partisan units appearing in Yugoslavia. But they will support partisans until they exist and some partisans will appear even without 3rd party support. They had lots of hidden pre-war weapons and with them they could capture more from the enemy. The Balkans in the early 20th century was more like the Wild West, with most households having at least one gun. They fought four large scale wars by 1945.Most partisan activity in Western Europe and the Balkans should almost cease if Great Britain has been conquered, but this is a what if. On the other hand, I only had a single commando appear in Poland throughout the war and not a single partisan division.
I am aware that for most players partisan war is rather annoying. However, it is necessary as in reality the Axis also had to devote large forces for anti-partisan duties, which could have been used elsewhere and thus it had a great effect on the outcome of the war. In most cases partisans tried to avoid direct confrontation with regular forces and it was more of an annoying cat and mouse game and that's precisely how it should be in this mod.The reason why I mentioned the partisans is because that's probably the only feature that I found more annoying from a player's perspective rather than challenging.
