***[MOD] RUSSIA AT WAR:1941

[Yrfin]

There were a some number of motorcycle regiments. Almost in every mechanized corps.
I'm not sure that it was the M-72, also maybe the previous models. But after the start of lendlise, there were also 35,000 motorcycles from the Allies.

Yeah, it looks like that according to the 1940 organisation each mechanized corps had one motorcycle regiment and each 1942-45 model mechanized corps and tank corps had one motorcyle battallion, however, some of these were replaced with an armoured recon battalion.

It is a good question though, how well they were equipped with motorcycles and with what type as it seems that the M72 production only started in 1941.

Of coz, motocycle was in Red Army. But Im said before, it was "on paper", becoz in real, its have too high cost.
For example, month income Division Commander of RKKA was 2200 rub, M-72 cost 10000, same like truck Zis-5.
Rich Germans can have a cheap motocycles, but poor Russians must be spend money for cheaps tanks.
And real lend-lease started at 1942.
But I think not the right place here to discuss about role of motocycles in war history

[McGuba]

But I think not the right place here to discuss about role of motocycles in war history

Hm... maybe I missed something... why not?
The question is wheter they have a place on the map or not? Approximately how many Soviet motorcyles were used in 1941 and the during the remainder of the war? I do not think that their "high cost" would have limited their use by the Red Army. There were many other "high cost" weapons which were used in large numbers and their effectiveness not always justified their cost. A possible example just out of my head are all those Soviet heavy tanks which were little more than sitting ducks in 1941. Now, those were really high cost and were still used in the front with little effect.

Intenso: if I remember well you suggested giving the camo trait to towed AT guns as well? If so, did you add it, or still thinking, or not?

[McGuba]

For example, month income Division Commander of RKKA was 2200 rub, M-72 cost 10000, same like truck Zis-5.

Well, I guess there is not much point in comparing an apple to a pear. A motorcylce with a sidecar has a totally different use (recon, communication, message deliveries, light fire support, etc.) than a ZIS-5 truck. If the motorcycle is good enough in its intended role and high command decides that they need such an asset to help a higher organisational level unit like a mechanised corps to fulfill its goals properly they will place a need for it, regardless of its unit cost.

[Yrfin]

A possible example just out of my head are all those Soviet heavy tanks which were little more than sitting ducks in 1941. Now, those were really high cost and were still used in the front with little effect.

Discussion about role heavy Russian tanks in WWII war history looking more intresting
" little effect' ?
I think (and read alot information) about shocked German troops with first meeting with KV-1/40.
First question:
Why in your Mod you have version KV-1/42 (?) with move 3 ? Fantasy ?
What do you know about KV-1S (Speed) ?

[McGuba]

Discussion about role heavy Russian tanks in WWII war history looking more intresting

For you maybe, but motorcycle were there as well for sure

I think (and read alot information) about shocked German troops with first meeting with KV-1/40.

I mainly meant types like the T-35, T-28 and the like. But there were problems with the KV-2 as well, although on some occasions it did make an effect, in general it was not a successful model, it was too high, too slow, too heavy, too unreliable, and yes, too expensive. As a result its production was soon stopped. The KV-1 was generally better, but was discontinued as well after a while when they realized that it could not be used together with the T-34 due to the difference in their mobility.

Why in your Mod you have version KV-1/42 (?) with move 3 ? Fantasy ?

I do not really understand the question. Do you doubt that there was a tank like KV-1/42 (or KV-1C)?
Or that it had the lowest speed of all the KV models due to its much increased armour?

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/s ... t_KV-1.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kliment_Voroshilov_tank

What do you know about KV-1S (Speed) ?

As far as I know it could make 40-45 km/h on road (25 mph), same as most other German tanks of the era, and that's why it has the same speed in the mod as well (5 hex). Any problem with that?

[Yrfin]

I mainly meant types like the T-35, T-28 and the like. But there were problems with the KV-2 as well, although on some occasions it did make an effect, in general it was not a successful model, it was too high, too slow, too heavy, too unreliable, and yes, too expensive. As a result its production was soon stopped. The KV-1 was generally better, but was discontinued as well after a while when they realized that it could not be used together with the T-34 due to the difference in their mobility.

T-28 was a medium tank, not heavy.
T-35 was builded about 50 pcs. Almost all was leave without fuel in June 1941.
KV-1 was changed by IS-1, so not "discontinued". For Heavy tanks RKKA use different tactics for Heavy Tanks (not like Germans did with Tigers Kompanie/Battalions) - special Heavy Tanks Brigade.

Do you doubt that there was a tank like KV-1/42 (or KV-1C)?
Or that it had the lowest speed of all the KV models due to its much increased armour?
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/s ... t_KV-1.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kliment_Voroshilov_tank

I dont read ""wiki-like" source of information
I give a link to book for Intenso about KV series (Russian language only unfortunately).

What do you know about KV-1S (Speed) ?

As far as I know it could make 40-45 km/h on road (25 mph), same as most other German tanks of the era, and that's why it has the same speed in the mod as well (5 hex). Any problem with that?

I haven't seen any KV tanks in your mode with move 5. Even KV-85 have move 4

[McGuba]

I haven't seen any KV tanks in your mode with move 5. Even KV-85 have move 4

Then you should double check as the KV-1S has movement 5 in the latest v1.8 version of my mod.
As far as I know the KV-85 had a max speed of 34-35 km/h according to most sources (22 mph) which in the game should correspond to 4 movement.

By the way, I suggest to continue this conversation in the topic of my mod and not in Intenso's as you are questioning the unit stats in my mod and not in his

I dont read ""wiki-like" source of information
I give a link to book for Intenso about KV series (Russian language only unfortunately).

Yes, unfortunately there seems to be a language barrier here. There are several western sources and books which specifically mention the KV-1/42 or KV-1C tank, and not only "wiki like" sources. For example this one refers to a German Rhein-Metal Borsig evaluation data:
http://henk.fox3000.com/KV.htm

And a book with a direct reference to it:
https://books.google.hu/books?id=8Iu1Dg ... nk&f=false

This tank type also has a place in the vanilla PzC e-file, so its supposed existence is not my fantasy or idea. It would be nice to have first hand access to Soviet sources to settle this matter.

[uzbek2012]

Yes, I see it. I would also like an icon looking like a German motorcyclist in Soviet camouflage.

I have already modified that icon accordingly, I think it should be good now:

SOV_M72.png

http://bot4wot.ru/main/5977-%D1%82%D0%B ... D0%BD.html



https://www.strategium.ru/forum/topic/8 ... y/?page=14

[Intenso82]

Tools->Validate scenarios.

Have you seen unknow cities name in the game or a warning about having custom strings in the editor?

You change Move (increase +1) for almost All units (land and air) from default value at PzC.
You set low Fuel stats for Soviets.

Is this in the version change list?
Of course, this is a note about balancing scenario, when it became clear that the units do not have time to capture VP.
And the fuel was about German planes, not Sov. and i increase fuel for Ger. not decrease,
they fell during the rain from lack of fuel Had non-combat losses ))

Yes, its understandable. But PzC AI dont know about it And ordinare player dont know about it.
So Im very doubt about increasing spot 3-5 for all AI unit. And Air recon with 5 spot looking overpowered, i think.
And whats wrong with T-26 (inf support tank), forced it to recon class with spot 2?

The German Panzer Division is a dangerous opponent.
This is a real panzer.
"They are the panzer elite, born to compete, never retreat ... " ha-ha...
Do not forget that Soviet tanks outnumber them 3-4 times.

For this scale of the map, this spot range is normal.

All light tanks are moved to the class of recon.
Some will have reconmove.

Tell me more about difference playing with default stats.

Check yourself.
With this unit AI becomes an expert in surprise attacks.
It really looks like a mobile warfare.

Still dont understand, what for reason you give GD 5 for All Truck ? In 1941 motorized Inf dont attack enemy from Truck/AFV in one movement.
You change GD for 250/251 to 7-8, i think its good enough.

Only to protect the AI units. Which he throws in the attack on the transport. And these supporting units are not combat units, artillery, etc.

In addition, I do not really imagine how at the level of a unit = division can be hitting and ambush, immediately lose the entire unit.
Why continue to move in ambush, if the advanced squad or battalion has already been squashing.
If this level is unit = battalion then ok.

Yep, i dont think about PzC like history-learning game.
But accurate numbers of Units make Mod look like "professional" made

Ask if that

[Intenso82]

I have already modified that icon accordingly, I think it should be good now:

Thanks, I'll try.
I think that a darker shade will less allocate this unit from others.

The only thing I am not happy with is that the sidecar is always in the same position as it is a mirorred image, but it is like that in the original icon so I cannot do much about it.

We will assume that the unit will move only in one direction, for example, to the west And no one will notice.

Yeah, it looks like that according to the 1940 organisation each mechanized corps had one motorcycle regiment and each 1942-45 model mechanized corps and tank corps had one motorcyle battallion, however, some of these were replaced with an armoured recon battalion.

This fits well into the concept, first there were separate motorcycle units, then they can be replaced with armored cars. Because Battalions are no longer represented, but are part of larger units.

The question is wheter they have a place on the map or not? Approximately how many Soviet motorcyles were used in 1941 and the during the remainder of the war? I do not think that their "high cost" would have limited their use by the Red Army. There were many other "high cost" weapons which were used in large numbers and their effectiveness not always justified their cost. A possible example just out of my head are all those Soviet heavy tanks which were little more than sitting ducks in 1941. Now, those were really high cost and were still used in the front with little effect.

Of coz, motocycle was in Red Army. But Im said before, it was "on paper", becoz in real, its have too high cost.
For example, month income Division Commander of RKKA was 2200 rub, M-72 cost 10000, same like truck Zis-5.
Rich Germans can have a cheap motocycles, but poor Russians must be spend money for cheaps tanks.
And real lend-lease started at 1942.

During the war, motorcycle production fell to about 5000 per year. But there were a number of them before the war.
And I think they are quite enough for 4 units as in RAW mod

Better I'll tell about counting.
For example about mechanized corps.
There are 20 of them in the border districts.

But I did not use the TOE, I used the technique counting in each corps separately. Using real data on mechanized corps, not on paper.
Therefore, each corps is represented by different composition.
The presence of armored cars and their composition by types were also estimated.

In each a different number of tanks, attached a reconnaissance unit. And motorized infantry. Which in fact was not motorized infantry, but was a mechanized division. But I still gave tanks T37, 38.

If there was enough armored cars in any mechanized corps, then the armored car unit was given as recon. If the armored car was not enough, then a motorcycle was given.
But there were mechanic corps in which there was no motorcycle regiment, then they were not given a reconnaissance unit at all.
Therefore, mechanized corps 20 on paper. But only 14 armored cars and 4 motorcyclists.

I think that using real data about the map, the location of units, the composition of forces, the weather, the number of reinforcements and the time of their appearance makes the mod quite interesting,
because I myself could not come up with such a combination.

[Intenso82]

I think KV did not have high reliability. Was expensive. Had the same weapons as the T-34.
And in the middle of the war did not exceed T-34 so much.
Therefore, decided to switch to IS tanks.

In this mod, the fuel level reflects also the reliability of the tanks. Therefore, the fuel level for Soviet tanks is not very large. My empirical assessment

By the way, I suggest to continue this conversation in the topic of my mod and not in Intenso's as you are questioning the unit stats in my mod and not in his

Hot discussion.

[Intenso82]

Intenso: if I remember well you suggested giving the camo trait to towed AT guns as well? If so, did you add it, or still thinking, or not?

Yes, I did it.
Previously, I found that AT units are too weak.

I can say that now I'm not entirely happy with this.
First, the player can use them as a unit of deep recon )
By the way, I increased the speed to 2 for AT units.

Сamo trait can only slow down enemy advance.
It does not do them much damage in combination with a 45mm AT unit.

Second, I think I will continue to expand this idea.
I would like to make two modes for AT units at this stage.
This is the normal mode without the сamo and the second "Аmbush" mode.
With сamo trait and 0 moves.
Further, I have further expanded the functionality of AT units, but this is in the future

Now, to do 2 modes, I need additional sign on the unit icon.
I'm looking for someone to draw them.
Or units that will differ in appearance from 45mm AT.
And it's better both!

It also turned out that if a unit does not have the ability to move to a neighboring hex, the unit can surrender.
But it will be the player's choice use ambush mode or normal mode.

Also, I plan to remake the system of movement, especially the increase in the speed of movement in the mud.
Since this greatly slows the advance of the enemy. And also because of the inability to retreat and the higher level of surrender because of this.

[Intenso82]

Wanna cry
Do you make backup copies?

[uzbek2012]

Скажите автор будут ли у вас немецкий диверсанты летать на планерах !?

Tell the author whether you have German saboteurs to fly gliders !?
http://tipolog.livejournal.com/164307.html


У СССР они тоже были )

In the USSR they also were )

http://war20.ru/article/23/boevoe-prime ... erov-v-vov

[Intenso82]

Tell the author whether you have German saboteurs to fly gliders !?

I'm not planning yet.

[Intenso82]

Hospital, Training Camp and Upgrade hex.

Finally I added my 3-6 month ago idea.
All this is located in the rear. In the vicinity of the city of Gorky, beyond Moscow.
Lendlis's technique also arrives there.



Hospital, how does it work?
Hex for rapid reform of infantry, tank and recon units.
To do this, just place the desired unit, on the highlighted hex, for 1 turn.
And the strength will be restored to 10 for free.
But we need to withdraw the unit from the battle.

Training Camp, how does it work?
Training for units without experience. You can stand by any unit on the allocated hexes, next to the tent with the star.
And each unit will receive every turn +3 to experience.

Upgrade hex, how does it work?
There are several types of units that use this.
You receive a message that an upgrade is available for a unit from a particular class to a certain unit. The cost of the upgrade.
Next, you place the unit you selected to upgrade to a hex with green arrows and the next turn you get an upgrade.
This is used in the first stages to upgrade the BT tanks in the T34. (In historical quantities)
And also for upgrades of heavy tanks, LendLiza equipments, etc.

Of course, there is a correlation with the monthly production rate of this or that equipments.
I also plan to use this thing for upgrading between classes / subclasses of units
If the upgrade was made, the highlight of the upgrade hex, disappears. (This can be seen in two pictures.)
If several upgrades are available, then they operate according to the First-In-First-Out principle.
And they are held in chronological order.

I call it a semi-manual-scripting upgrade.

Guards hex, how does it work?
You get a message about the possibility promote infantry or tank units to the Guards.
Choose the one unit that you think is the most distinguished.
Put it on a black-and-orange backlit hex.(Sign of the Guard).
And the unit becomes Guards and goes into another subclass.
In general, this works just like an upgrade hex.

[Yrfin]

Hi !
Can you tell more in detail about the principles of formation of artillery regiments ?

Questions:
1. where "Stalin's Line" has got to ?
2. names of rivers ?

[Intenso82]

Can you tell more in detail about the principles of formation of artillery regiments ?

A mixture of two principles.
On average, each rifle corps, for 3 infantry units, has 1 unit of the divisional arty.
And the corps or artillery of the reserve of the main command is attached depending on how much it was actually given.
In some proportions, on average, from 4-5 arty regiments = 1 arty unit.
The second principle is quantitative. Calculating the number of artillery by type. Approximately up to 200 guns = 1 unit.

1. where "Stalin's Line" has got to ?

Where it is fortified, somewhere bunkers.
But I do not see something that the stalin line was well strengthened.
I came across information that there were only 20 of the 600 bunkers in the fortified area combat-ready.
And 20 bunkers are 0 - fortifications in mod.
Somewhere there were no people, somewhere there were no battle-worth fortifications, somewhere there were no guns, somewhere there were no shells. And everywhere it is in different combinations.
Although I might have missed something

2. names of rivers ?

When everything else is ready.
May be in future versions.

[Yrfin]

1. where "Stalin's Line" has got to ?

Where it is fortified, somewhere bunkers.
But I do not see something that the stalin line was well strengthened.
I came across information that there were only 20 of the 600 bunkers in the fortified area combat-ready.
And 20 bunkers are 0 - fortifications in mod.
Although I might have missed something

"...142 casemates and positions for field artillery (caliber of 76 mm), 248 casemates and bunkers for anti-tank tools (caliber of 45 mm) and 2572 casemates and bunkers for machine guns."http://army.armor.kiev.ua/hist/linia-stalina-ukr.php

[Intenso82]

"...142 casemates and positions for field artillery (caliber of 76 mm), 248 casemates and bunkers for anti-tank tools (caliber of 45 mm) and 2572 casemates and bunkers for machine guns."

Yes, I'm talking about this.
Probably the effectiveness of Stalin's line was about 5% of 100% possible.
And this is not more than 10 fortified hexes or bunkers in mod.

That is reflected in Minsk, Kiev, Leningrad and several other places.