Seaplane Fighter needs tender, airfields do not work?

[Andy2012]

So I tried playing Surface raiders, again.
I thought: "Hey, those bombers are useless. Slow, weak attack, Brits have more fighers and so on. I use my air points to get 2 recon and 1 fighter. Look, that fighter is even a seaplane. Genius."
Then got two Cruisers Hipper Class, one sub to hunt for the carrier, one aux supply ship, done with deployment. (In round one.)
Turns out my seaplane fighter has now red supply numbers because only a seaplane tender and not that airfield I also have
can supply his special needs.
This seems both historically, logically and gameplay-wise wrong and more like a bug.
Am I right?

[Horst]

Yes, it seems like the trait floatPlane actually demands naval-supply. I've tested the Ar 196A-3 together with an airfield, tender, and carrier. It turns dry with only an airfield but works fine with either tender or carrier. Strangely, the supply demand is only substracted from the tender, but not from the carrier points.
No idea if this trait works as intended.

[Andy2012]

Yes, it seems like the trait floatPlane actually demands naval-supply. I've tested the Ar 196A-3 together with an airfield, tender, and carrier. It turns dry with only an airfield but works fine with either tender or carrier. Strangely, the supply demand is only substracted from the tender, but not from the carrier points.
No idea if this trait works as intended.

Probably not then. Odd.

By the way, I now seem to have figured out 'Surface raiders'.
Just did the same thing I did in the original OoB:
1. Go for some cruisers, a lot of destroyers and 1-2 supply ships. Some recon planes. (Wish I had a fighter, but well..)
2. Avoid battleships like the plague. Too expensive, slow, prime target, no torpedoes, long-range guns useless.
3. Keep the supply ships in the back.
4. Make dashing attacks, preference for torpedoes. Retreat anything below 6 back to the supply ships.
5. Basically bounce back between enemy and supply ships doing torpedo attacks.
6. Be really careful about the AI attacking your repair zone. Even a 1 strength cruiser can easily destroy your supply ships in the red.
7. Oh yeah, know the mission by heart. Send two subs to the carrier in the southeast.

Havent played past 20 turns, but this seems to work like in the original OoB back then.
Problem is: This is neither fun nor uses any of the new mechanics.
Or am I doing this wrong?
I mean, I try not to be mean, but I basically play this like Kriegsmarine never happened and it works fine. However, mechanics that render the Bismarck useless kind of feel like fighting in Kursk without Tigers.

[Mojko]

2. Avoid battleships like the plague. Too expensive, slow, prime target, no torpedoes, long-range guns useless.

It's not as bad as in the original OOB. I use the Scharnhorst class battleship. They have equal speed to cruisers and even have torpedos.

[kverdon]

But Andy's point is valid. The mechanics slant the game into a surreal version of Naval Warfare. You are picking Scharnhorst BCs because they have torpedoes instead of better main amament? Huh????? Yes, it may work in the game but name 1, just 1, instance in real naval combat in WWII where a battleship successfully torpedoed ANYTHING?. in the real world, in every single case when a Battlecruiser came up against a real Battleship, the Battlecruiser lost and was sunk.

[Andy2012]

But Andy's point is valid. The mechanics slant the game into a surreal version of Naval Warfare. You are picking Scharnhorst BCs because they have torpedoes instead of better main amament? Huh????? Yes, it may work in the game but name 1, just 1, instance in real naval combat in WWII where a battleship successfully torpedoed ANYTHING?. in the real world, in every single case when a Battlecruiser came up against a real Battleship, the Battlecruiser lost and was sunk.

I slept on this now and one thing I came up with is that the mechanics do not seem to have a rock-paper-scissors logic behind them.
I mean, my knowledge of Naval warfare is pretty superficial. But Battleships should be almost invulnerable to everything except sub, plane and
speedboat attacks with torpedoes. Destroyers should be fast scouts, sub hunters, support vessels. Heavy Cruisers like the Scharnhorst should almost fall in BB category. Their guns should be their main armament. BBs main guns should be a game-stopper for almost everything (I think that's why they were build, right? Okay, also for intimidation and propaganda)
But right now, swarming torpedo attacks by DDs knock out any battleship easily. There is just no counter to this except bigger DD numbers or a carrier or two equipped with bombers.
I think most of this can be evened out with careful testing, retesting and tweaking of unit stats. But if you plan to crank out a DLC every three months with a skeleton crew, this will suffer. (And btw, for that small team, this is pretty good. I am really trying to be fair and positive here.)
(Oh yeah, the German naval air force arm is also pretty weak right now. But this will change later on, I guess. But right now, I get two recon and save the money for anything else, dont use my air points to the full.)
Or am I doing this wrong / thinking the wrong way?

[Andy2012]

2. Avoid battleships like the plague. Too expensive, slow, prime target, no torpedoes, long-range guns useless.

It's not as bad as in the original OOB. I use the Scharnhorst class battleship. They have equal speed to cruisers and even have torpedos.

Yeah, but limited repairs and still expensive. Not a clever option. Even though I would love to center my strike force around a mighty BB (just for the feel of it), it is not smart in my book.

[Andy2012]

Probably not then. Odd.

By the way, I now seem to have figured out 'Surface raiders'.
Just did the same thing I did in the original OoB:
1. Go for some cruisers, a lot of destroyers and 1-2 supply ships. Some recon planes. (Wish I had a fighter, but well..)
2. Avoid battleships like the plague. Too expensive, slow, prime target, no torpedoes, long-range guns useless.
3. Keep the supply ships in the back.
4. Make dashing attacks, preference for torpedoes. Retreat anything below 6 back to the supply ships.
5. Basically bounce back between enemy and supply ships doing torpedo attacks.
6. Be really careful about the AI attacking your repair zone. Even a 1 strength cruiser can easily destroy your supply ships in the red.
7. Oh yeah, know the mission by heart. Send two subs to the carrier in the southeast.

Havent played past 20 turns, but this seems to work like in the original OoB back then.
Problem is: This is neither fun nor uses any of the new mechanics.
Or am I doing this wrong?
I mean, I try not to be mean, but I basically play this like Kriegsmarine never happened and it works fine. However, mechanics that render the Bismarck useless kind of feel like fighting in Kursk without Tigers.

Okay, finished this now. 40 turns and glad it is over. BTW, that was my second playthrough of this mission and I kinda knew what was about to happen. And this is just the third mission and I feel already terribly annoyed. (And I always try to be a positive guy, I liked Blitzkrieg and most of WinterWar.)
My issues:
1. My submarines knocked out the carrier, but are useless against everything else. I mean, I brought two down. Both were trailing my main force and ran into some country class cruisers. Two attacks by two subs, 4 torpedoes, zero damage. And this is not a nimble destroyer.
2. The British in turn have a field day. I mean, even with my exploitative strategy using the torpedo dashes described above, I am limping into the exit squares by turn 40, being chased by two cruisers and a destroyer I possibly could not have taken on now. Especially not after they sunk my supply ship and a DD.
3. Speaking of supply ships, with the British being all over me, I need to retreat there regularly and repair. This drains experience from my troops and with the efficiency reduction makes them a prime target for the RN swarming everywhere. This is just frustrating. I think that was one of the most annoying things about naval combat in the original: No core unit progress, basically cannon fodder.
4. 10 Damage to planes with AA guns - useless objective. I mean, with all the damage I take and the repairs I need, I have not enough cash to deploy any of the slow, useless planes the KM has on offer at this point.
5. Merchant ships - there are just three around there, could not find the fourth. Any help?

Summed up, even with those wacky torpedo dashes, this is not any fun. Instead of a quick and decisive dash through enemy patrols like the Kriegsmarine did back then, you grind through waves upon waves of superior RN vessels. With the secondaries, you kind of force me to loiter here (sink 3 battleships, deploy in small groups etc). The basic idea is nice, but the mission design is just botched. (And I have a high tolerance for frustration.) You really need to rebalance this one and I wont begin tampering with the unit.csv file to make this better on my own. Sorry.
Oh yeah, I am not of those fanatics demanding historical accuracy before anything else, this is a game. But I always wondered while playing "wasnt this fun once? Why does this feel so slow and grinding?".

[Mojko]

Okay, finished this now. 40 turns and glad it is over. BTW, that was my second playthrough of this mission and I kinda knew what was about to happen. And this is just the third mission and I feel already terribly annoyed.

I recommend you to look at my replay of this missions (played on middle difficulty). This mission was pretty challenging, but fun to play.

[Andy2012]

Okay, finished this now. 40 turns and glad it is over. BTW, that was my second playthrough of this mission and I kinda knew what was about to happen. And this is just the third mission and I feel already terribly annoyed.

I recommend you to look at my replay of this missions (played on middle difficulty). This mission was pretty challenging, but fun to play.

I assume this is not meant in a patronizing way, right? So, uh, thanks.

BTW, in "Western approaches", how do you actually deal mine damage? I finally managed to put a cohesive minefield into the path of one convoy which wasnt spotted, the supply ships ran into two of them... and took zero, I mean zero (!) damage twice. Twice.
This is getting frustrating. I can deal with a learning curve but some stuff just seems absurdly unbalanced.
My core more and more is an all-Hipper class fleet. (Nickname: The Hippsters ) BBs are just too expensive.
My subs are useless.
A 4 strength Hurricane heavily damages the sub bunkers while my 109s are away chasing recon planes.
Oh yeah, briefing text says knock out 3 recons, numbers say 2. Bug.
This is beginning to add up.

[Mojko]

BTW, in "Western approaches", how do you actually deal mine damage? I finally managed to put a cohesive minefield into the path of one convoy which wasnt spotted, the supply ships ran into two of them... and took zero, I mean zero (!) damage twice. Twice.

You need to inflict decimal damage to the supply ships before they hit the mines.