Just casual talk about infantry, grenadier and volkssturm

[scha8461]

After playing Panzer Corps for a few years, I finally manage to the last mission in 44 campaign, and then I saw those volkssturm.

The volkssturm is cheap, but they are also extremely weak as well. I don't see they have any value in 44 and 45 campaign against bloody soviet tank spam. Or may be it is just me that I can not come up with any proper tactic for using volkssturm.

By the way, from the start of 43 campaign, I no longer use mountain troops, as they have same stat to 43 infantry except weaker anti-tank capability. I don't know about the actual history very much, but I consider those 43 mountain troops as light infantry or supplementary troop which used to guard the rear part of battle field. So I basically convert all of my mountain troop into standard infantry.

And for the grenadier, from 43 campaign I basically use grenadier for defence purpose. They move slower than normal infantry which is not good for an assault. But they are the backbone for my defence in many missions of the 44 campaign. I deploy them in the city with artillery support to hold major victory point, and so far they seems to work very well.

What are you guys thinking? Feel free to discuss, I just want to hear some voice

[goose_2]

After playing Panzer Corps for a few years, I finally management to the last mission in 44 campaign, and then I saw those volkssturm.

The volkssturm is cheap, but they are also extremely weak as well. I don't see they have any value in 44 and 45 campaign against bloody soviet tank spam. Or may be it is just me that I can not come up with any proper tactic for using volkssturm.

By the way, from the start of 43 campaign, I no longer use mountain troops, as they have same stat to 43 infantry except weaker anti-tank capability. I don't know about the actual history very much, but I consider those 43 mountain troops as light infantry or supplementary troop which used to guard the rear part of battle field. So I basically convert all of my mountain troop into standard infantry.

And for the grenadier, from 43 campaign I basically use grenadier for defence purpose. They move slower than normal infantry which is not good for an assault. But they are the backbone for my defence in many missions of the 44 campaign. I deploy them in the city with artillery support to hold major victory point, and so far they seems to work very well.

What are you guys thinking? Feel free to discuss, I just want to hear some voice

Thanks for bringing your questions to this great forum.

I found in my playthrough I found that Volkssturm were extremely helpful in filling the gaps in my army when I found that I hit the punishment of the soft cap to fill in holes in my defense as using them in front of artillery made nice walls in my defense. Do not get me wrong they died often and could not really counterattack, but they filled their role.

I loved Mountain Troops, in fact on my current playthrough I am fielding most of my army with those units, I may convert them later to Grenadier's as their defense and assault capabilities are top notch.

Pioniere's can be good but they take too many losses in my opinion.

[best75]

Volkssturm were added in soviet corps and in that expansion you play as the soviets so I don't think they were ever intended for player use.

I find using the pre 43 pioneers useful but Pioneers lost their spark in 1943 because they don't gain an increase in initiative so by than I generally upgrade all my pioneers to grenadiers.

[Buffalohump]

Volkssturm were added in soviet corps and in that expansion you play as the soviets so I don't think they were ever intended for player use.

I find using the pre 43 pioneers useful but Pioneers lost their spark in 1943 because they don't gain an increase in initiative so by than I generally upgrade all my pioneers to grenadiers.

Have you considered upgrading your high initiative hero units to Pioneers, Cavalry, and Kradschutzen. In the post 43 campaigns I have found by upgrading my two high movement, high initiative heros to 43 Pioneers and the remaining high initiative heros to Cavalry units on the eastern front that I have highly mobile troops that can keep up with my armor and are not in constant need of fuel resupply. The bulk of my remaining infantry units are left as rifle infantry and grenadiers. I do not know how historically accurate this is but it is for me an effective strategy.

[wargovichr]

Check out the **higher ammo** on Gebirgsjäger, especially the mid/late war heroed ones with say +2 defense (initiative, etc.).
I use them overstrengthened in cities at battle starts, they quickly become entrenched, almost invulnerable, to slow, channel or deflect an attack. This surrounded high ammo "fortress" is a foil for a German counterattack.

[scha8461]

Volkssturm were added in soviet corps and in that expansion you play as the soviets so I don't think they were ever intended for player use.

I find using the pre 43 pioneers useful but Pioneers lost their spark in 1943 because they don't gain an increase in initiative so by than I generally upgrade all my pioneers to grenadiers.

Have you considered upgrading your high initiative hero units to Pioneers, Cavalry, and Kradschutzen. In the post 43 campaigns I have found by upgrading my two high movement, high initiative heros to 43 Pioneers and the remaining high initiative heros to Cavalry units on the eastern front that I have highly mobile troops that can keep up with my armor and are not in constant need of fuel resupply. The bulk of my remaining infantry units are left as rifle infantry and grenadiers. I do not know how historically accurate this is but it is for me an effective strategy.

This is actually a very good idea and I have never thought of that. Having fast moving Pioneers would be very helpful in the 43 Campaign. But in the 44 and 45 Campaign Pioneers are not that important in a defensive fight as normal infantry is cheaper to resupply when suffer heavy casualty.

[scha8461]

Check out the **higher ammo** on Gebirgsjäger, especially the mid/late war heroed ones with say +2 defense (initiative, etc.).
I use them overstrengthened in cities at battle starts, they quickly become entrenched, almost invulnerable, to slow, channel or deflect an attack. This surrounded high ammo "fortress" is a foil for a German counterattack.

Yes I think everybody will get 2 very good defensive mountain troops in the 43 Orel campaign. They could be very good at entrenching in a city but they are not very effective to counter attack soviet tanks. Even I manage to catch some soviet tanks which rush into the city or forest area, my mountain troop can merely kill half of their point and sometime force them to retreat, while my Grenadier have a very high chance to decimate them.

I still keep those 2 very good mountain troops but for me they are just barricade to hold a point. Because AI most of time just standing around them, for some reasons

[TSPC37730]

Yes I think everybody will get 2 very good defensive mountain troops in the 43 Orel campaign. They could be very good at entrenching in a city but they are not very effective to counter attack soviet tanks. Even I manage to catch some soviet tanks which rush into the city or forest area, my mountain troop can merely kill half of their point and sometime force them to retreat, while my Grenadier have a very high chance to decimate them.

I still keep those 2 very good mountain troops but for me they are just barricade to hold a point. Because AI most of time just standing around them, for some reasons

You can certainly upgrade them to Grenadiers. The '43 Grenadier has a hard attack of 8 vs 3 for the '43 Gebrigsjager. This more than anything accounts for their reduced punch. The trade off is 5 ammo vs 6. The standard '43 infantry has a hard attack of 6 but also carries 6 ammo. That's also an option that will fare better against tanks. Good luck!

[captainjack]

43 infantry are surprisingly good, especially in defensive scenarios where the extra ammo can make a big difference. Move 3 also helps move out of front line to resupply and back in to replace retiring units. If you aren't in a hurry and prestige is short, you can disband the transport for cheaper reinforcements. If you have a move hero, you will be as fast as a truck most of the time and will never run out of fuel in snow. I usually only use SE Grenadier as I find 5 ammo a bit tight, especially late war and on defence in close terrain where running out can be very bad news.

I can see why volkssturm would look like a good buy to fill a hole in a defence line (just like in real life), but you might be better off paying the extra for real infantry. Even 39 infantry fight better and have better defence, and if they survive with an extra star they can sit in reserve and be upgraded to 43 inf and be a much better hole filler next time round. In contrast your volkssturm probably won't survive, and if by some amazing luck they did upgrading them to proper infantry is (I think) a full price upgrade. I suspect that the prestige from disbanding surviving damaged infantry would often cover most of the difference in purchase price, especially if you buy 39 infantry rather than 43 and only upgrade successful units.

[AMDonline]

when i knew that Pioneer were immune to "Rugged Defense" i switched all of my infantry units to pioneers
seeing Rugged Defense message popping up makes my blood pressure goes super high and i become mean to the people around me

[TSPC37730]

when i knew that Pioneer were immune to "Rugged Defense" i switched all of my infantry units to pioneers
seeing Rugged Defense message popping up makes my blood pressure goes super high and i become mean to the people around me

Artillery helps here too. Each attack reduces the enemy entrenchment one level, making the rugged defense less likely. Further, any strength points which are suppressed can't attack & therefore can't hurt you, even if there is a rugged defense.

[scha8461]

when i knew that Pioneer were immune to "Rugged Defense" i switched all of my infantry units to pioneers
seeing Rugged Defense message popping up makes my blood pressure goes super high and i become mean to the people around me

Man, your comment is so funny
By the way, you convert all infantry into pioneers won't it slow down your assault? I use a lot of infantry because even they suffer from Rugged Defence, they are cheap to resupply. Anyway, what raise my blood pressure are those SPAA, they shoot down my expensive aircraft but even that I will never being mean to people around me

[captainjack]

what raise my blood pressure are those SPAA,

Me too. If they start getting a bit too annoying, BiteNibbleChomp created a stand-alone scenario which features a map full of T90 SPAA and a Tiger. That should allow you to work out any frustrations.

Incidentally, Oleh Dir makes a great pioneer because he is fast and has good initiative, which are the two real weaknesses of pioneers. Oleh Dir is fast enough that you can manage without transport which means that replacements are that bit cheaper, which is a good thing for such a good assault unit. Some of the bonus infantry in 43 also have good move heroes and make good conversions.

[DeMeza]

Oleh Dir is a beast as Pioneer - and overstrengthed. When assaulting, he is basically my main effort. Thinking back, I can't even remember how many times he has delivered breakthroughs against heavily fortified positions (I am late '44 Eastern front).

[verstaubtgesicht]

Oleh Dir is a beast as Pioneer - and overstrengthed. When assaulting, he is basically my main effort. Thinking back, I can't even remember how many times he has delivered breakthroughs against heavily fortified positions (I am late '44 Eastern front).

Oleh Dir is so good under every circumstance that it is difficult to decide how to use it. IMHO, the unit is overpowered too much, but hey, while it's there, I'll use it! In my first GC it got extra move, so I used it as a grenadier, but in another GC I've got extra offense, and I found that the movement over the hills and the extra movement (3 vs. 2) is actually quite useful (many times there was a hill that gebirgsjaeger Oleh Dir could land onto, attack it's target, and not be disturbed by enemy's armor, because it was on a hill. Or simply could move through 2-3 mountains to reach its target where there was no open terrain). I would guesstimate that there might have been 20-25% turns where this mountain Oleh could attack, while an alternative infantry unit could not (because of the mountain movement ability or lack thereof). This is especially true for offense. However, in'44/'45 I'd prefer a grenadier (because there is more defense and '43 inf unit stats change). The pioneer idea sounds also reat, but I did not get a chance to try it. But ultimately I think it really depends on the type of the extra 2 heroes a lot.

[CroCop96]

On that topic, does anyone know was Oleh Dir a true person, like Sepp Allerberger, Rudel etc.? I couldn't dig up anything on him. Oleh sounds like Oleg, which is a Slavic name, and Dir, what kind of a German surname is that? Strange. But the gifted, non random heroes are usually non-fictive, right?

But yeah, on most of my campaigns, primarily talking about GC East, Oleh Dir will either become the Sturmpionier-Abteilung of 1. Kavallerie-Division, or a Grenadier regiment of Grossdeutschland. I love the fact I can roleplay in this game and I always use proper unit designations. Of course, every time, I have some favourite divisions which always get elite replacements, etc. etc....

Any infantry with a + defense hero becomes Fallschirmjager or Kavallerie, later Kradschutzen. Movement heroes - Pioniere or Grenadiere, of course.
(P.S. And yes, I have a fetish for the 1. Kavallerie Division and yes, I use cavalry until '43, when they become Infantry '43 with hanomags...)
(P.P.S. Cavalry is misrepresented in the game with too low defense. In WW2, cavalry generally didn't charge on horseback the 19th century way - GENERALLY* - but fought as dragoons, which means they rode to battle on horses but fought dismounted. I.e. motorized infantry, only using biological horsepower for their transport. This was well-represented in the spiritual ancestor of Panzer Corps, Panzer General, where cavalry units used the mounted mode just like other units use trucks. I don't know why haven't the devs done that. Perhaps because everyone would just use cavalry because it would be better than infantry? Well, we didn't in Panzer General.

Fallschirmjager tend to die without support, but at least in Sea Lion that is solved by (generally) more available air transports - I use the DFS gliders for some sweet 75mm field guns to aid the paratroopers until armor links up. Very kind of the developers.
Kavallerie would die normally, but I really babysit them with constant escorting SiG33's/StuG's, closed terrain etc. My affinity for cavalry aside, they are really useful as flanking troops, in muddy conditions, when exploiting enemy line breaches, for surprise attacks, for linking up with paratroopers...
The Pioniere are so great with their entrenchment ignoring, I always use at least 3 units of them.
Regular infantry and Grenadiers are not plentiful in my army, but there are usually 3-6 of them combined. For when regular infantry work is required, and for realism as well. Of course, I roleplay that infantry are regiments and pioneers are battalions; it would be weird to have 4 regiments of infantry and 4 regiments of engineers.

* There were some documented cavalry charges, Italians on the Eastern front, Soviet Cossacks (but in snowstorms, fog etc. for cover), Poles and Germans in Fall Weiss (there was a charge on the first day of the war, ha-ha). Look it up if interested.

I love it when my artillery gets range heroes. Instant StuG conversion, as it fits perfectly in my armored spearhead tactics as defensive support which can also lend a hand the very same turn in attacks. (and no, I don't savescum every turn to get favourable heroes. I find it a) immoral, b) irritating the Machine Spirits, c) tedious. But mainly immoral. What you get is what you get. Even when I got, like, a 10th +1 spotting hero on my infantry units in one playthrough... Superior deutsche binoculars)

Tanks with initiative boni become Panthers. Sometimes, also, tanks with defense boni; while sometimes I just feel like ''superior deutsche steel'' and upgrade them to Tigers to get impenetrable walls of titanium and kevlar, lel.

All captured heavy tanks, and by God they are aplenty, are granted the title schwere Pz-Abteilung and eventually get Tigers, regardless of their heroes because they're schwere and they'll remain schwere, damn it. Except the KV1C and maybe KV1B: they're good enough and remain what they are.

Czech 38's are upgraded to Panzer IV's.

Panzer IV's tend to stay Panzer IV's, because they're gut enough and because of the long-term costs of cross-upgrading 3 times.

Panzer III's, if I have them at all,get upgraded to Panthers or Tigers if they survive, although the Ausfuhrung N is sweet.
Sometimes I don't even use the Panzer III's at all and, for AT purposes in '40-'41, substitute them with Panzerjaegere I's, PaK's, 88's, StuKa's, 110's - and that is not so bad, actually. That way all I have are 3-5 Panzer IV's which will serve to the end of the war in their same metal boxes, and captured tanks, which will get upgraded to Panthers or Tigers eventually. Saves prestige and builds up veterancy for the Panzer IV's, which eases their living in '43 and later.

Panzerjaegere I's usually get upgraded to StuG's, I tend to skip Marders entirely.
I currently have a +1 move, +1 initiative Panzerjaeger -> StuG -> Elefant. Splendid.

T34's and Somua 35's, well, they're good enough - disband or upgrade into something significantly better.


I got carried away and expanded the topic on non-infantry units, but oh well.

[captainjack]

I went through a cavalry phase a while ago. They are especially good in snow (no fuel to run out) and desert (no fuel to run out), but they are very vulnerable.

I think the high vulnerability is reasonable. Guderian pretty much writes off cavalry in Achtung Panzer! and the WW1 examples he gives show that they were vulnerable while travelling and in combat. Even allowing for a bit of bias to support his campaign for mechanisation, entire German regiments were effectively wiped out in the early days of the war by units that were even less well equipped than the Belgian infantry in Panzer Corps.

It works quite well to allow cavalry units to switch to (dismounted) infantry. This makes them infantry with built in horse transport, that can fight (a bit) when mounted. For me, they should be about as vulnerable as any other transport, but with some ability to fight - keeping the standard SA/HA but making them passive attacks seems to work quite well, as it allows for reasonable defence (some firing from the saddle plus rapid dismounting when attacked) while discouraging charges. The If you want to relive the Italian cavalry charge against the Soviet mortars you can always keep the actual cavalry and add dragoons.

Gebirgsjagers are good early on and if I'm using a structured army I usually have a brigade, but after 43, they usually get converted to something else with better HA.

[DeMeza]

These last comments have been fascinating. Care to elaborate about preferred arty and tactical fighters?

[captainjack]

Care to elaborate about preferred arty and tactical fighters?

My views on artillery ROF and ammo are scattered about in many thread so I don't want to swamp an infantry thread with them.

For some nations fighter/tac bomber options are very clear cut, but there are also some interesting trade offs (eg 109E vs 109F, is the FW109D worth it?, upgrade to Centauro or not? and Stuka vs 110/410).

I think you could easily justify a separate thread for each and keep this one for infantry discussions.