Conformation

[shadowdragon]

I thought the solution was that A woiuld go right, which is not what Lawrence said.

In example A each base is in contact with only one enemy base so conforms to that enemy base by shifting to be in full frontal contact which means A goes left which is what Lawrence said.

[shadowdragon]

This line gives a choice in some situations.
1. Do the bases conform to those in contact at impact?
2. Or do they conform to an overlap position?

In Phil's example A.
1. The red bases conform to the left as we look at it.
2. The red bases conform to the right as we look at it.

Note that a base can only conform to an overlap position (of a base it contacted at impact) if another friendly base has conformed to full frontal contact with that same enemy base and if the overlapping base is at the end of the enemy line.

Answer to example A given above....each base is in contact with only one enemy base so can only conform to full frontal contact. There is no overlap option which only occurs when two friendly bases are in contact after impact with the enemy base at the end of the line.

[shadowdragon]

FOG is dead.
I'm moving on.

Sadly in the States that does appear to the situation.

There does seem to be an anti-FoG sentiment in the US with regards to any version of FoG (AM, Ren, Nap), which is a shame. I don't quite understand it but then again the DoD produced JWARS which modelled every soldier and piece of equipment moving from base to theatre to combat believing the results were accurate. LOL

[grahambriggs]

So which way do these conform

I would play:
A and B go to the right as we look at it, C goes slightly right and D goes slightly left. A, C and D are not ending in front edge contact with the base they contacted but are conforming by shortest possible

Thanks for the diagrams Phil, makes things easier. So, general principle is that you conform (if possible) to the bases in contact or to the overlap position at the end of the enemy BG. Plus you must do so by the smallest distance possible.

Immediate thing to note is that in A and B the overlap position is a viable option being very close, in C and D while there are overlap positions, they're past the end of the row of four bases so are not going to be close enough to be the shortest move. And in D the end bases of the four green bases are neither starting in contact with the red bases nor would conforming to them constitute an overlap position (those only occur at the ends of BGs)

So, A and B as Phil says move the red bases a bit to the right. So for red, the mini wheel in A has led to the same reult as the straight on charge of B.

In C, the two left hand green bases are in contact so you have to conform to them. Of course, the two central bases are closer but the rule doesn't say that. The overlaps position is too far away to be the closest. In effect it says find the bases you've hit and the overlaps positions; conform to the closest OF THOSE.

In D, the only green bases in contact are the middle two, the overlap position is miles away, so you must conform to the middle two bases. D is a case where red may have been a little dim, as he'll now be double overlapped whereas a charge flush into the enemy would have led to conforming to the two left hand green bases (and only having a single overlap against)

C is where I see most arguments at competitions, because it gives red an advantage compared to a straight on charge, and it's counter-intuitive. Given the long of this thread and the amount of disagreement on it you might perhaps imagine the it can lead to frayed tempers in the heat of a game. Personally, I think it's not the finest hour of the rule writers. On the other hand, green does get an overlap and in their previous move could perhaps have lined things up better.

FWIW I think there would have been far better ways to write this rule, that would have C and D conform in a more logical and intuitive manner. And in a casual game, I'd have no problem with playing it that way. But when I'm umpiring in a tournament unfortunately I have to rule as best I can on what the rules actually say, not what they should say.

[grahambriggs]

FOG is dead.
I'm moving on.

Good day, gentlemen.

Greg Boeser

Good day to you Greg. I'm sorry that this issue has caused you to move on. It is a fairly minor issue, after all.

[philqw78]

So, A and B as Phil says move the red bases a bit to the right. So for red, the mini wheel in A has led to the same reult as the straight on charge of B.

Thank you, 50% is a pass mark in most exams

red may have been a little dim

We can all be a bit dim at times as proved by this thread

write this rule, that would have C and D conform in a more logical and intuitive manner

Is, unfortunately what we expect

Clear to me now anyway and I am happy to play it that way since we should ALL now agree.

[petedalby]

First, I would like to say that I think the clarifications are great, they seem sensible. Thanks for all the work.

Thanks Peter

To get to where we are took a lot of time and effort. My preference is to leave them as they are for now. They conforming piece will be good for 90% of cases. Sadly it is all too easy for people to post up obscure examples which most of us will never see on the table and ask for a response.

If all of the other clarifications work then I am pleased with what we have achieved collectively. I believe they will now be adopted on the official Field of Glory website as well as by the BHGS which is another positive step.

[shadowdragon]

Sorry for asking another question, Pete,....but just when I thought I understood it...

A base can confirm to any enemy base that has been contacted and not just the specific base it has contacted?

So in example A, the red BG shifts to the right with both red bases conforming to the rightmost green base. The left red base, looking up, is allowed to conform to that base (the right green base) even though it had contacted the left green base in impact?

[dave_r]

Sorry for asking another question, Pete,....but just when I thought I understood it...

A base can confirm to any enemy base that has been contacted and not just the specific base it has contacted?

So in example A, the red BG shifts to the right with both red bases conforming to the rightmost green base. The left red base, looking up, is allowed to conform to that base (the right green base) even though it had contacted the left green base in impact?

Personally with the rules as clarified the red bases would move to the left in example A as each charging base has only contacted one base - therefore it must conform to it.

Might discuss this off-line with Pete and Graham if they think differently.

As Pete has said though, we were attempting to produce a _short_ document that solved 95% of problems. During competition gaming there will always be a need for an umpire and we aren't trying to cater for all circumstances, just the "usual suspects".

All of this conformation stuff must happen frequently - but often it doesn't really matter so it's of no consequence.

[philqw78]

???????????????? What
Graham just bloody explained it

[AlanCutner]

I appreciate all the work that has been put in. But I thought I'd followed the clarification on conforming and now I'm thoroughly confused. I have absolutely no idea which way bases are now supposed to conform. Help!!!!!!!

[shadowdragon]

???????????????? What
Graham just bloody explained it

Yes, he did and perhaps it's clear to you but not entirely so to me since one of the red bases in case A, according to Graham's explanation, is confirming to a base other than the one it contacted. Not a big deal in most cases but if the two green bases were from separate BG then the left green base/BG would have fought in the impact phase but not in the melee phase except possibly as an overlap.

I see two game design objectives that need to be balanced here...

1) keep fighting the same foes in the Melee phase that you fought in the impact phase.
2) minimize shifting of bases

Doesn't matter to me which is compromised....just asking for a tiny bit more clarity in the explanation, please.

[shadowdragon]

Given that it's minus 22 degrees Celsius outside (minus 36 with the windchill) I should get a little bit of leeway with a bit more explanation. LOL

[philqw78]

Clear to me now anyway and I am happy to play it that way since we should ALL now agree.

See easy

[lawrenceg]

Thanks for the diagrams Phil, makes things easier. So, general principle is that you conform (if possible) to the bases in contact or to the overlap position at the end of the enemy BG. Plus you must do so by the smallest distance possible.

This is the critical part of the explanation, which I hadn't deduced from the clarification document. I'll expand on it based on my new understanding of it.

When you conform, one of two things can happen:

either
1. Each base conforms to a base it is already in contact with.
or
2. One base conforms to the overlap position at the end of the enemy BG (if it's a wide BG another base may overlap the other end of the enemy)

If the shortest distance for 2 is less than the shortest distance for 1, then you do 2.

Otherwise you do 1.


That means A, B and D go right, C goes left.

To get the intuitive result (C goes right, D goes left), the rule wording would need to change, e.g. from "conform to bases in contact" to "conform to battlegroups in contact", or change from "overlap" to "in corner to corner or side edge to side edge contact", or add "or overlapped by".

[ravenflight]

Ok - here is my problem:

I see ABSOLUTELY no difference between the Elephant being hit by the element of Knights =or= (in Phil's excellent diagram above) the left hand (as we look at it) red base in (a) hitting the left hand green base.

There are many examples of where a BG is referenced by the situation in a file, and as such each file in many ways acts as its own little bit of the army. For example:
If you have Spearmen in two ranks you may count a +POA but if you're in a file that has only 1 rank you don't get the POA; and,
If you have a BG that has 1 base in rough, they may count as disordered, where the rest don't.

As such, if you rule that the knights must conform with the Elephants then you MUST (IMHO) rule that the left hand red base must conform with the left hand green base in (a).

To me, that is a given.

Which leads me to my second problem:

In (b), we see almost exactly the same impact as in (a), the only difference is a bee's dick of separation between the front edges of the right side of the elements. This difference is so small that it wouldn't be there in real life... fighting bodies of men would have filled that gap. I cannot, therefore, see why the direction of conformation would be different in (a) than it is in (b).

Given the fact that in both (a) and (b) the same number of impact dice would be thrown, I find it in comprehensible that the conformation could be even remotely different... especially given the phasing player can opt to do a micro wheel (so small you can't see it, but I told you I was wheeling) JUST to get to conform a way which suits him better. I find this highly unrealistic.

[lawrenceg]

Ok - here is my problem:

I see ABSOLUTELY no difference between the Elephant being hit by the element of Knights =or= (in Phil's excellent diagram above) the left hand (as we look at it) red base in (a) hitting the left hand green base.

The difference is:

(more detail added to what I said before)
When you conform, one of two things can happen:

either
1. Each base conforms to a base it is already in contact with.
or
2. One base conforms to the overlap position at the end of the enemy BG and the other bases line up accordingly, instead of each base conforming to the base it is in contact with. (if it's a wide BG another base may overlap the other end of the enemy) .

If the shortest distance for 2 is less than the shortest distance for 1, then you do 2.

Otherwise you do 1.

In the knights and elephants example, option 1 is the shortest distance.
In example A option 2 is the shortest distance.

In both A and B the reds conform to the right, i.e. option 2.

The knights and elephants example is more like Phil's case C.

[petedalby]

Ok - here is my problem:

I see ABSOLUTELY no difference between the Elephant being hit by the element of Knights =or= (in Phil's excellent diagram above) the left hand (as we look at it) red base in (a) hitting the left hand green base.

The key difference is that in Phil's example there is only 1 target BG. Change his example to 2 target BGs who are next to each other and the conform would change and go to the left - exactly the same as the Knight vs Elephants.

A great summary explanation though Lawrence - thank you.

This thread is what prompted us into action to produce some clarifications following the earlier calls to do so - sorry we haven't done this bit to everyone's satisfaction. My personal preference is to leave it as it stands for now but I will take advice from my fellow BHGS umpires and see how they feel.

[lawrenceg]

Looks as though the clarification could do with more clarification in the next edition.

[philqw78]

The knights cannot conform because they would completely lose contact with the elephants.
(IIRC I can't see any of the diagrams at work, my browser uses a magneto and a valve to produce images on mechanical scanning device)

Then the elephants and bow conform in their turn. And this is where the problem is when reading the rules and looking at the diagrams. IMO the shortest move to bases in contact or overlap goes left for the archers and elephants, and this is backed up by the illustration.

Whatever you come up with I am happy to play, so long as it can be applied fairly across all situations.

I shall produce another wonderful drawing tonight which makes the "if you only contact one base that's who you conform to theory" more dificult to use.

In essence who you end up fighting is one of the most important parts of the game, so it needs to be right. People have already started tantrums.

We've obviously just all been happy without looking at the detail before, and I haven't played Graham for years.

Looks as though the clarification could do with more clarification in the next edition.