Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.4

[Uhu]

A quick report about the try to beating both enemies in 'historical' version:

- Played again from turn 36 (nov, 1942)
- This time remaining subs moved away from the convoy route to save them for the late Sealion - it was a mistake, I missed the prestige points.
- I took Iceland, but in 1943, it had not a big effect on the Axis war efforts.
- This time, I took Leningrad first, which was a good idea.
- After destroying the attacking force, I took Moscow.
- I started the Caucasus campaign very late, which I think, was also a mistake - I missed that prestige points too.
- I used the rivers in the wast land east of Voronezh, south of Rostov and NW of Stalingrad really succesful. I just forget to build a winter-capable line...
- I couldn't make an invasion before D-Day in England to cancel it and also my ships and strategic bombers arrived late on the scene, so most Allied transport got through
- I could build a strong defense force, which contained the Allied advance in the Normandy region-
- Very late (turn 89), I could take Grozny
- This time I could only afford 1 Panther G .
- Tunis was succesfully defended, at turn 89 I was already in Cairo, which gave me a slight chance to take most of the Middle East objectives, but not all (!).
- I was in the reach of taking all Soviet objectives, but the chance for that was not 100%.
- I ended this game at turn 89, because I didn't see any chance to succesfully capture England - which was the goal of this try - in 10 turns.

[Uhu]

My only question is: when will be v.15 published?

My suggestion is: it is advised to good balance the in-family upgrade of the Pz III - Panther, because it is not just the difference of the prestige points, but it should be taken also into consideration, that with better armor, casualties will be lower (as with the Stug's or Pz IV's would be).

Another important suggestion:
the strenght-destoying penalty should be softened, or maintined only for the beginning of the invasion!! It was really irritating, that after the invasion, I simply couldn't go in any sea-adjacent hexes beacuse of it. It is also questionable, why I will be penalised, when I have a unit in Tunis??

Another question: what have to be changed to enable horse-drawn units to enter trench hexes?

[Uhu]

Yoa have absolute the point! (Another "interesting historical solution" of the developers.. )
I support the change.

If we are at historical accuracy I noticed that the German "Schnellboote" unit is wrongly depicted in the game, IMO. Historically it was a fast motor boat armed with only 2-4 torpedoes and 1-2 MGs and was mainly used against merchant ships, destroyers and other smaller ships. However, in the game these are pretty much small destroyers with the ability to attack submarines, even though historically they had no depth charges or sonar and in WW2 they sank only one submarine (most likely caught on the surface).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-boat

So now I am thinking about moving these small ships to the recon class which would only give them surface attack, but recon movement which would nicely simulate their trade mark hit-and-run attacks and would also make them a good unit to scout enemy shores and naval minefields (thanks to their wooden hull magnetic mines could not hurt them).

However, players probably got used to their unhistorical anti-submarine capability in PzC which would lead to some confusion or frustration at first.

I also do not really understand why this particular unit is named in German Schnellboote, and the other ships types are not. Either this one should be named in English E-boat, or the others should be named in German, too. Thus Destroyer should be Zerstörer and Battleship should be Schlachtschiff. Or maybe as a compromise it could be S-boot. But it might be just nitpicking...

[Delta66]

Hi McGuba,

Are you feeling ok , with so many good ideas in your mind, lol

The German word "Schnellboote", a bit like panzer and many other words, somehow broke the language barrier, then they become a sort of iconic concept. I have a several boardgames or books in english that use the word in German just for this kind of fast boat.

This is similar for "tank", the Germans call them Panzer, the Americans or British Tanks, I think the Russian word is similar but I'm not sure how it should be written and pronounced in Russian. The French call them Chars. Yet people get used to call them tank for any nation, but Panzer for the German even in English language.

About the historical side of the vanilla game, I just recently started to play multiplayer (after 3 years of solo play!), Ouch!! that rally hurts the history fan in me, most MP scenarios play much like a fantasy or Sci-Fi RTS, moreover from the relatively small number of MP scenarios you have US vs Russian, even US vs Brits, and plenty of generic situation with symmetrical map. I found it really disappointing. There could be some fun in them but they feel even less anything like WW2, that the solo scenarios.

Can't wait for v1.5

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Schnellboote... But it might be just nitpicking...

Everyone will get very confused if you use German names for stuff like BBs and CVs. I really don't see why bother editing it. Those that care enough will most likely be willing to change it themselves.

- BNC

[Uhu]

Some additional experience, suggestions:

- StuG's now works fine: I use 3 of them (PzJäger I upgraded, Finn AT gun upgraded, gift StuG). Their armor protects them long and after the arrival of the late version even the elite replacement is affordable
- The new, in-family armor upgrade possibility of the Hungarians, and Romanians work also fine. Now the player is motivated to carefully use them until the Pz IVH upgrade shows up.
- The new, in-family fighter upgrade possibility of the Italians (MC.200->MC.202) fits also good in the system: Italian fighters are still second-line compared to German built machines, but at least they can help to bring down Soviet (!) bombers, or weakened fighters. The hero-fighter has even the chance to counter second-line West-Allied planes in the Mediterranean. I'm just disappointed with the G.55 Centauro - although it's stats are really good, still it is weak against late war fighters in both fronts.
- When we are speaking about the in-family upgrade of Pz III's, what about the Pz II's and Pz 35/38(t)'s? They are also numerical and they were historically also upgraded or converted. Maybe create the Marder series in tank family to let them upgrade on them? Pz I's should be stay, as they are. They are good for partisan hunting.
- It's a good idea to make the penalty of partisans staying on railroads only for the end of Axis turn. Sometimes they get on their turns already on the tracks and I get the penalty, before I can react anything!
- The penalties for units being in towns (Tunis, Normandy) should be removed.
- Suddenly I discovered, that on Rommel mode, the penalties get also halfed! Maybe a Rommel version of this mod should be published too, to fix this problem?

[BiteNibbleChomp]

- When we are at the in-family upgrade of Pz III's, what about the Pz II's and Pz 35/38(t)'s?

I think that 35s and 38s should go to 4s, not 3s/Panthers. The 35/38 types were more similar to the 4 and anyway, weren't the 4s built in factories that had previously done 38s?

And Finally, If all tank designs upgrade to Panthers, why would anyone use Tigers then? They were generally used about equal (I think) to the Panther in terms of numbers

- BNC

[Uhu]

I can hardly imagine, that anybody (expect the Tiger fanatics ) buy Tigers: they are extreme slow on fuel, which means, they possibilities for attack are very limited...but I really happy with the gift-Tiger! It is a real life-saving thing.

And Finally, If all tank designs upgrade to Panthers, why would anyone use Tigers then? They were generally used about equal (I think) to the Panther in terms of numbers

- BNC

[Uhu]

After several playings of v1.4 I would say, that the bombing war works well and it shouldn't hardened. Maybe the AI don't targets major German cities, as primary objectives, but sometimes it flies there, which makes penalties. But the main point is, that the player is forced to leave a large and strong fighter force in NW Europe, if he wants to, at least contain the hell...
That means: I had my best fighters in that theater: 4 Fw 190's, later another 2. Mostly strong heroes. Also at least 80% of my AA was on the ground - with that power I couldn't shoot down all Allied airforce, but decimate them.

So I think, the goal of this feature is fulfilled.

A more hardened bombing war would mean, that the player looses all of his incoming/turn, which would be not historical, because, despite the bombings, Germany could maintain it's war production to the very latest.

[Uhu]

New try, new report:

- still with v1.4
- started again from turn 36, "changing point", historical setup of units
- this time I could almost beat Britain too (the Soviet Union int turn 89) - about in 1-2 turn, all of the British Island could have been taken, the second British oil field in 1 turn, while the Middle East in about 10 turn (I made here mistakes).
Summary: I will make another try, to beat this historical version.

Although, I think, I will not wait on v1.5 - 36 turns means a lot of time (my starting point) and the possible "Pz III - Panther in-family upgrade" future can be managed also with the prestige cheat in both directions.

[Uhu]

If we want to make a difficulty level over Field Marshall, I would say (from easiest to hardest up to down):

- Field Marshall
- Rommel
- Rommel, without extra prestige (convoy route, capturing important cities, etc.)
- Rommel, with historical setup and change in the course of history only from late Nov. 1942.

[McGuba]

My only question is: when will be v.15 published?

I would say mid-late November. No promises, though.

My suggestion is: it is advised to good balance the in-family upgrade of the Pz III - Panther, because it is not just the difference of the prestige points, but it should be taken also into consideration, that with better armor, casualties will be lower (as with the Stug's or Pz IV's would be).

It should be balanced by the increased Allied air activity in the West. Which would draw more fighters there from the Eastern front. Which means less protection against the Soviet Il-2s. Which would mean more casualties to them. Just as historically. In theory, at least.

Another important suggestion:
the strenght-destoying penalty should be softened, or maintined only for the beginning of the invasion!! It was really irritating, that after the invasion, I simply couldn't go in any sea-adjacent hexes beacuse of it. It is also questionable, why I will be penalised, when I have a unit in Tunis??

That script is only active for 10 turns in case of the Normandy invasion, and for even less in the other invasions. I also removed some penalty hexes from the map from Norther France in v1.5. However, I cannot remove the one from Tunis as it uses the same AI zone as the Normandy beaches. I do not have enough AI zones thus I some of them, like this one, are used for different things.

Another question: what have to be changed to enable horse-drawn units to enter trench hexes?

The movement.pzdat in the Data folder.
The wheeled movement currently has:
Fortification 3 3 3

which could be reduced to 2?

I will run a test.

Hi McGuba,

Are you feeling ok , with so many good ideas in your mind, lol

Haha, yeah no problem, I am just fed up with myself sometimes.

The German word "Schnellboote", a bit like panzer and many other words, somehow broke the language barrier, then they become a sort of iconic concept. I have a several boardgames or books in english that use the word in German just for this kind of fast boat.

Yeah, sure, same like with U-boat. Still, as "my" Schnellboot will be quite different from the vanilla one I would rather rename it to S-boat to emphasize the difference. Also, it makes its name similar to the existing U-boat unit. And it will have a slightly modified unit icon and will use the torpedo launching animation.

- The new, in-family armor upgrade possibility of the Hungarians, and Romanians work also fine. Now the player is motivated to carefully use them until the Pz IVH upgrade shows up.

I plan to do the same with the Minor Axis aircraft. So that for example it will worth uprgarding Hungarian Ca.135 and Romanian SM.79B to Ju 88 in 1943/44 as it happened historically. It will also make the inevitable Bf 109 ugrade cheaper for these countries.

- When we are speaking about the in-family upgrade of Pz III's, what about the Pz II's and Pz 35/38(t)'s? They are also numerical and they were historically also upgraded or converted.

Yeah, but if I place them in the same family with the Pz.III/IV they would be upgraded as early as in 1941, while historically they served in the frontline well into 1943. As currently they are, they can be used for secondary roles until 1942/43, as historically, but after then they have to be upgraded or can only be used against partisans.

Maybe create the Marder series in tank family to let them upgrade on them? Pz I's should be stay, as they are. They are good for partisan hunting.

I would not mix AT class units with the tanks. If I place the Marders in the tank class what about the Pz Jager and StuG? And the JgPz IV and Jagdpanther? All should go there? Or just some?

- The penalties for units being in towns (Tunis, Normandy) should be removed.

There is no penalty for the towns in Normandy. Only for Tunis, but it cannot be removed as I wrote above.

- Suddenly I discovered, that on Rommel mode, the penalties get also halfed! Maybe a Rommel version of this mod should be published too, to fix this problem?

Hahh, yeah but it is still much harder with just half the prestige added.

I think that 35s and 38s should go to 4s, not 3s/Panthers. The 35/38 types were more similar to the 4 and anyway, weren't the 4s built in factories that had previously done 38s?

The Pz.35/38 were completely different designs made by Czech factories. As I know after the production of the Pz.38 was stopped, the Czech BMM and Skoda went on to produce the Marder III, Grille, Hetzer and Flakpanzer 38 which all used the excellent chassis of the ealier Pz.38 (origianlly designated as LT Vz 38 by the Czech). The Pz.IV was produced by German factories like Krupp and Vomag.

The in-family upgrade system of PzC is essentially flawed, as it was written numerous times before. It should allow cross-class upgrades so that Pz.38 could be upgraded to all those.

And Finally, If all tank designs upgrade to Panthers, why would anyone use Tigers then? They were generally used about equal (I think) to the Panther in terms of numbers

Because a Tiger unit is given for free and it is available much earlier then the Panther. Historically a lot more Panthers were produced (about 6000) than Tiger Is (about 1300) and the Wehrmacht hardly ever had more than 200 operational Tigers at any given time. Which makes up to one or max two units in this mod.

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopi ... =26&t=3722

I can hardly imagine, that anybody (expect the Tiger fanatics ) buy Tigers: they are extreme slow on fuel, which means, they possibilities for attack are very limited...but I really happy with the gift-Tiger! It is a real life-saving thing.

Haha, so you would not buy it, but you are very happy to get one, lol. :

After several playings of v1.4 I would say, that the bombing war works well and it shouldn't hardened. Maybe the AI don't targets major German cities, as primary objectives, but sometimes it flies there, which makes penalties. But the main point is, that the player is forced to leave a large and strong fighter force in NW Europe, if he wants to, at least contain the hell...

I already placed two more "gift" bomber destroyer units to help to fight the Western onslaught: a Bf 110G and a Ju 88G, the latter being a new unit in v1.5 for which I made a new icon using parts of bebro's aircraft replacement icons:

Ju_88G.png (57.73 KiB) Viewed 5467 times

Isn't it nice?

A more hardened bombing war would mean, that the player looses all of his incoming/turn, which would be not historical, because, despite the bombings, Germany could maintain it's war production to the very latest.

Since the penalty occurs at the end of the Axis turn the player should not lose all his incoming prestige. He should only lose from whatever prestige is left at the end of the player turn.

While it is true that Germany could maintain its war production despite the bombings, the bombing of the oil refinieries and synthetic oil plants did in fact cause a serious shortage of fuel which significantly shortened the war in Europe. Many heavy tanks were destroyed by their crews due to lack of fuel, and the planes of the Luftwaffe were grounded for the same reason. Another very important factor, IMO, was that they had to reduce the filght training hours as well as there was not enough fuel which resulted in less well trained German pilots who became easy prey for the much better trained US fighter pilots in 1944/45.

[McGuba]

Since I currently live by the sea and enjoy having a walk or some cycling near the beach when I have the time, I have the impression that the sea tiles are not depicted very nicely in Panzer Corps, i.e. the sea looks kinda unreal. However, I do like the look of the sea in the upcoming Order of Battle: Pacific game as it can be seen seen in the published pre-release screenshots so I started to experiment a bit. I find those sea tiles much more life-like and believable so I tried to add them to PzC. I think the "average" look of the Atlantic Ocean/North Sea is pretty much similar to these:


Near Tobruk:




North Atlantic convoy routes:




The only downside is that some units would be a bit harder to see such as some German planes due to their similar tone, like these near the Skagerrak. But, during my tests German planes spent most of their time over the land so it should not be a big problem:




On the other hand, the new sea tiles would not be in such a great contrast with the winter tiles as the vanilla green/blue sea:




So what do you think? Like it or not?

[Uhu]

Well, it's a huge difference! It' good, that you placed also units on it to see the real picture. And what about the lakes? How will look they like? And what about the hex contours? Or they are just completely hidden in your setup? I need hex contours in zoom-out view.

Anyway, I would give it a try. Please publish it, to let me test is.

I do like the look of the sea in the upcoming Order of Battle: Pacific game as it can be seen seen in the published pre-release screenshots so I started to experiment a bit. I find those sea tiles much more life-like and believable so I tried to add them to PzC. I think the "average" look of the Atlantic Ocean/North Sea is pretty much similar to these:
So what do you think? Like it or not?

[hugh2711]

Just a general comment about big scenario's:
I am sure as you do more revisions there is a temptation to add more and more enemy units. two of the reasons I like this big scenario is because although it is TOUGH it is finely balanced and there is plenty of room to do different things. Although there are alot of enemy units because it is so big they are spread out. The opposite of this is like in the late grand campaign scenarios in gc44/45 where if you turn off the fog of war you will see that virtually every hex is filled with an enemy unit. The game then becomes the style of a 'shoot them up'/first person shooter type which changes the nature of the game and they get a bit boring. i think most people play these turn based games to excercise thier minds. An example of the fine balancing is e.g taking iceland and interdicting shipping makes the computer divert resources from N Africa and over the channel and lessens the pressure on those two theatres.
So the fine balancing and lots of space makes this an awesome mod.

[Magic1111]

So what do you think? Like it or not?

Wow, it looks very, very nice! Never seen before better sea tiles!

I like it very much!

[BiteNibbleChomp]

So what do you think? Like it or not?

Wow, it looks very, very nice! Never seen before better sea tiles!

I like it very much!

Agreed. Possibly better than the real sea itself!

Just warning you - WWI Gold comes out on 11/11. You might want to release v1.5 a couple days earlier to prevent me from stealing all the players .

And just a random idea from WWI Gold (literally!): Add some hypothetical attacks with 25% chances of occuring to stop people from thinking "The Russians never attacked near Moscow in late 1942. Therefore I won't bother defending that line!" I'm using that to catch people off guard (and some of those offensives are REALLY brutal!)

- BNC

[lsnoop]

On the other hand, the new sea tiles would not be in such a great contrast with the winter tiles as the vanilla green/blue sea:




So what do you think? Like it or not?

Modding tiles can cause dmp-style visual extravaganza but your new sea tiles look very realistic and fit the original color pattern.

Can we get a download link for this?

[captainjack]

I was going to say how realistic your sea was, but I just looked out of my window and the sea is a much lighter blue and has scarcely a wave in sight!
While you're recolouring your tile set to match my late evening sunshine, could you add a few seagulls and a yacht or two?

[Magic1111]

Can we get a download link for this?

Yes, good idea! Can we have a download link for the tiles as a separate MOD please?