Couple of rules questions.

[bbotus]

thanks for all the comments; very helpful...

re sequencing of charges. the situation arose only because Robert's knights failed their test not to charge thereby charging and triggering the intercept charge. Had Robert chosen to charge then I presume he could have charged his cav first and this would have avoided them being hit in the flank by my intercept...

Not in V2. The only way to avoid the intercept also hitting the cav is to hold the knights so that the intercept is not allowed. ALL intercepts move before any charging BGs are moved.

[grahambriggs]

You are quite right, v2 DID resolve this one by making explicit wording changes to the Full Turn Sequence in Appendix 8. So Graham's comment above (deal with each charge/intercept/response one at a time) is wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time. I don't have my rules with me - what does that bit of the FTS say exactly? I was really going on the P74 wording, particularly "Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence at the end of the book, but if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned."

I'm not sure how well the bit after the comma sits with 'do all responses first'. I suppose it depends what you take 'actioned' to mean. I'd read it as everything in the impact section, including response. But you could read it as "moving the bases of that BG".

[zoltan]

You are quite right, v2 DID resolve this one by making explicit wording changes to the Full Turn Sequence in Appendix 8. So Graham's comment above (deal with each charge/intercept/response one at a time) is wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time. I don't have my rules with me - what does that bit of the FTS say exactly? I was really going on the P74 wording, particularly "Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence at the end of the book, but if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned."

I'm not sure how well the bit after the comma sits with 'do all responses first'. I suppose it depends what you take 'actioned' to mean. I'd read it as everything in the impact section, including response. But you could read it as "moving the bases of that BG".

Digital 9-20 Sequence of Charges and Responses
"Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence at the end of the book....."

Digital 27-1 Full Turn Sequence (abridged)
Declare all charges
Declare and move all interception charges
Make all evade moves
Make all charge moves

[grahambriggs]

Ah yes, thanks Mr Z and have now read in the paper rule book too. Looks like both charges are indeed cancelled. Which leads us to the tactics section....

[pyruse]

Hmm. That bit about each charge being done separately has implications for the turning to face debate.

[gozerius]

Not really. Bases hit by a flank charge turn 90 if possible. Bases hit by a rear charge turn 180. It's all there on page 175. One could have a base hit by both, in which case I would turn it 180, since you can always turn 180 but a 90 might be blocked.

[bbotus]

It has implications because the order you hit a unit with multiple charges may or may not allow a base to turn to face. In the example on page 167, if the flank unit charged before the rear unit, then there would be room to turn the 2 right bases 90. i.e. Flank charge, 'immediate' turn of the bases, then the 2nd charge. (Maybe that is the intent of the word 'immediate')

[gozerius]

P.61 and p.175 in V 2.0. This is true. Once turned the base is now in contact with enemy to its front. This could change the relative positions of edges of the BGs involved. This is why I interpreted the sequence for the result shown on 175 as front, then rear, and finally flank. The front rank doesn't turn. The bases hit by the rear charge turn 180. The bases hit by the flank charge would have turned 90 except for the presence of the rear chargers in contact already. This would be perfectly in line with my supposition that the diagram is actually compressing these things in time as opposed to the general view held here that the line on page 61 means all bases wait until all charges are complete, then turn in whatever direction they still can, glossing over the word immediately, which is found inconvenient. Had the sequence been flank, then rear, the flank bases could have turned 90, with the stepping forward base contacting the already turned base. By insisting that bases don't turn until after the chargers step forward leads to arguments as to whether a contacted base can later turn 90 such that it is no longer in contact with the charger. (But if it turns 180 it will always be in contact with the base that contacted it!!) This is a vestige of DBM's base vs base combat resolution and should have no influence on the proper reading of the rules for FoG. We should be adopting (although it is probably too late as the conventions have been set and are nearly impossible to break) the mindset proposed by the author in his introduction that the units in FoG are the BGs themselves and not individual bases. Unfortunately, the author himself has not completely shrugged off this mentality and so we have "official" confirmation of conventions which are counter-intuitive to a cohesive reading of the rules, but completely in line with a particular, base vs base approach. The Impact Phase is littered with them as the turn to face debate shows, but this is also encountered in the combat resolution rules.

[paullongmore]

Hi guys

Secondly I had a BG of LH pinned to it's front and I retired the LH straight back it's full distance. In doing this it crossed the ZOC of another BG. Paul thought it should stop at the point of hitting this new ZOC but I thought it only had to respond to the original ZOC and no others. I didn't give in on this one so that the game lasted a few more bounds.

Firstly and quite decisively in V2 you can always retire to your rear regardless of ZOC. Secondly, as an aside I have always played that you only have to respond to a single pin in a round. If one reads it that multiple pins have to be concurrent to be able to ignore 1 then you would almost never get out of multiple pins as when you left one of them the other would immediately kick in.

[bbotus]

Secondly, as an aside I have always played that you only have to respond to a single pin in a round. If one reads it that multiple pins have to be concurrent to be able to ignore 1 then you would almost never get out of multiple pins as when you left one of them the other would immediately kick in.

If you start with 2 units pinning the BG, then you get to chose which to respond to and ignore the other. But, if you move into a 3rd ZOC, does that cause you to react to it? How do you play it if you start outside of all ZOCs and move into the ZOC of an enemy? Can you ignore it and move through? Or do you have to react to it?

[grahambriggs]

Secondly, as an aside I have always played that you only have to respond to a single pin in a round. If one reads it that multiple pins have to be concurrent to be able to ignore 1 then you would almost never get out of multiple pins as when you left one of them the other would immediately kick in.

If you start with 2 units pinning the BG, then you get to chose which to respond to and ignore the other. But, if you move into a 3rd ZOC, does that cause you to react to it? How do you play it if you start outside of all ZOCs and move into the ZOC of an enemy? Can you ignore it and move through? Or do you have to react to it?

I believe the restricted area rules apply throughout the movement phase. There is no concept of "at the beginning of the phase" about being in a ZOC. So that means you have to take account of it when moving (unless you happen to be in two ZOCs, in which case you choose)

[bbotus]

I believe the restricted area rules apply throughout the movement phase. There is no concept of "at the beginning of the phase" about being in a ZOC. So that means you have to take account of it when moving (unless you happen to be in two ZOCs, in which case you choose)

Are you saying that if you start in the ZOC of 2 units, you chose one to respond to. Then as you move, if you clear the ZOC of the unit you are responding to but are still in the ZOC of the other unit you chose to ignore, now you can no longer ignore it?

[gozerius]

Since the restricted area rules specify that you choose which BG to respond to, once you are responding to one, the other restricted zones are ignored. Except in the case of contracting that explicitly says that a file cannot contract if it is in any (emphasis per rulebook) restricted area.
This allows a BG that starts in more than one restricted zone to apply the move restrictions vs. one but not the others. It also allows a BG which moves into one restricted zone to move through others so long as it is maintaining the restrictions of the first. You cannot ignore a restricted zone based on entering another later. You cannot switch which restricted zone you are reacting to in mid-move.

[zoltan]

Digital 10-6
"For normal movement only, a battle group within 2 MU directly in front of an enemy battle group is considered to be pinned and can only perform a limited range of actions in the manoeuvre phase:"

This introductory paragraph doesn't contain any explicit restrictions about when during the manoeuvre phase the Restricted Area rule is considered/applied. This suggests that it is considered/applied throughout the phase whenever it is relevant.

Digital 10-7
"If pinned by more than one enemy battle group, a battle group can chose which of these it responds to, and (with the exception of contraction) any restrictions apply relative to that battle group only."

There seems to be two viewpoints:

1. at any time during the manoeuvre phase if a BG starts, or comes within, the RA of enemy BGs it can chose which of the enemy BGs it "reacts to" and applies the RA rules to that BG (only). This interpretation suggests that a BG could start within the RA of one enemy BG but completely ignore the RA movement restrictions as long as it ends the manoeuvre phase within the RA of a second enemy BG and applies the RA movement restrictions at that point. For example, LH starting the manoeuvre phase within 2 MU of an enemy BG could ignore that enemy and move 7 MU into the RA of a second enemy BG. As long as it complies with the RA movement restrictions with respect to that second enemy BG, it can ignore the RA of the first enemy BG. "I chose to react to the second enemy BG's RA thank you very much".

2. if a BG starts the manoeuvre phase within the RAs of more than one enemy BG, it gets to chose which of those BGs it "reacts to". If it subsequently moves within the RA of another enemy BG, it once again applies the RA movement restrictions.

[grahambriggs]

I believe the restricted area rules apply throughout the movement phase. There is no concept of "at the beginning of the phase" about being in a ZOC. So that means you have to take account of it when moving (unless you happen to be in two ZOCs, in which case you choose)

Are you saying that if you start in the ZOC of 2 units, you chose one to respond to. Then as you move, if you clear the ZOC of the unit you are responding to but are still in the ZOC of the other unit you chose to ignore, now you can no longer ignore it?

Well to be honest the way I play it is that you just ignore the 2nd pinning unit for the movement phase. I may be doing that wrong but it seldom seems to make a difference.

[AlanCutner]

I've always played it that
1. If a BG is pinned by multiple enemy at the same time it selects which one to respond to and ignores the others for the rest of its movement phase.
2. If as a result of movement it enters the pin zone of another BG (ie. not one of the ignored ones) whilst not pinned by any other enemy it has to obey all the normal pinning restrictions for the new enemy.
3. If the new pin is also a multiple you get a new choice of which to ignore. The consequence is that if the new pin is a multiple with the original enemy BG being responded to, you can choose to continue responding to the original, or start responding to the new enemy from the moment of entering its pin (usually with very few options).

I've no idea if this is correct, but I've never had anyone raise concern with it.

[petedalby]

I've no idea if this is correct, but I've never had anyone raise concern with it.

That looks good to me Alan.

I believe a BG that begins in a restricted Zone is additionally constrained on entering a new restricted zone - it doesn't get to pick and choose.