Couple of rules questions.

[Robert241167]

Hi guys

Had 2 games with Paul Johnston yesterday and 2 rules questions came up:

Firstly I had a BG of knights that could be intercepted in the flank failed a test not to charge. They were intercepted and Paul checked that his intercepting BG could step forward into the flank of another of my BG's that had declared a charge on another target. Without this step forward Paul could not have intercepted the second BG. Is the intercepting BG able to do this on a different BG that it could have not intercepted otherwise? I gave in on this as the wording backed up Paul's side.

Secondly I had a BG of LH pinned to it's front and I retired the LH straight back it's full distance. In doing this it crossed the ZOC of another BG. Paul thought it should stop at the point of hitting this new ZOC but I thought it only had to respond to the original ZOC and no others. I didn't give in on this one so that the game lasted a few more bounds.

Cheers

Rob

[dave_r]

Hi guys

Had 2 games with Paul Johnston yesterday and 2 rules questions came up:

Firstly I had a BG of knights that could be intercepted in the flank failed a test not to charge. They were intercepted and Paul checked that his intercepting BG could step forward into the flank of another of my BG's that had declared a charge on another target. Without this step forward Paul could not have intercepted the second BG. Is the intercepting BG able to do this on a different BG that it could have not intercepted otherwise? I gave in on this as the wording backed up Paul's side.

Given that the wording backed Paul's side I suspect you've answered your own question?

Secondly I had a BG of LH pinned to it's front and I retired the LH straight back it's full distance. In doing this it crossed the ZOC of another BG. Paul thought it should stop at the point of hitting this new ZOC but I thought it only had to respond to the original ZOC and no others. I didn't give in on this one so that the game lasted a few more bounds.

I think this has come up before. Can't remember what the outcome was though.

I believe that since you have been within the pin zone of two enemy BG's you can choose to react to the pin of either as per page 80 - therefore as you are making a legal move in the pin zone of the original BG you can ignore the second pin zone you enter.

[navigator]

cheers Dave

1. p68 "the intercepting battle group steps forward as it would in a normal charge." This is in the paragraph re flank intercepts. So on this occasion I hit the flank of Robert's knights and then my extended line stepped forward with another file to contact the flank of Robert's cavalry unit that was about to make a charge elsewhere. Robert's doubt was on whether my knights could step forward ...

2. p80/81 Robert's LH moved away from one restricted zone but then 3 inches later entered another restricted zone (an enemy unit standing side on to the LH). Reading the rules... implies in the manoeuvre phase entering a restricted zone gives you certain options... I cant see anywhere where it says once you leave one restricted zone you can ignore the restricted zone of another unit. ( except of course where you are pinned by two different units you can choose which one you react to - but that is not what happened in this instance) Incidentally Robert you cant contract files that are in a restricted zone to begin with so am not sure you could have gone into column to avoid my troops behind yours... just musing

3. There was a third query. My knights had a target straight ahead in open terrain so I tested 'not to charge'. However there was a rough terrain piece to my left. If my knights had veered off course slightly they could have crossed the terrain and ended their move partly in it and disordered yet still contacting the enemy. Therefore reading the rules implies if my knights' could' have ended the move in the terrain then they did not need to charge... even though by going straight ahead they would have been ok . seems a little bizarre.. any comments

HNY etc

[grahambriggs]

Hi guys

Had 2 games with Paul Johnston yesterday and 2 rules questions came up:

Firstly I had a BG of knights that could be intercepted in the flank failed a test not to charge. They were intercepted and Paul checked that his intercepting BG could step forward into the flank of another of my BG's that had declared a charge on another target. Without this step forward Paul could not have intercepted the second BG. Is the intercepting BG able to do this on a different BG that it could have not intercepted otherwise? I gave in on this as the wording backed up Paul's side.

I think you played it correctly. However, you can avoid this ghastly outcome by doing the cavalry charge before you do the knight charge (almost the last entry in the impact section says where is matters, the active player determines the order of charges). So you could probably have got the cavalry out of harm's way.

[Robert241167]

Thanks Graham

Paul mentioned interceptions happen before charges as per the sequence so I couldn't do any charges until he had done the intercept.

Rob

[navigator]

yea the sequence in the book is intercepts move before charges.... if Robert's knights had passed their test not to charge then non of it would have happened. Cheers..

and presenting two flanks to be charged..... well that's for the tactics page

[dave_r]

and presenting two flanks to be charged..... well that's for the tactics page

Rob's tactics page....

I've just asked him if he wants to be on the GB team at Rome in 2014. Perhaps I should withdraw the offer?

[zoltan]

Secondly I had a BG of LH pinned to it's front and I retired the LH straight back it's full distance. In doing this it crossed the ZOC of another BG. Paul thought it should stop at the point of hitting this new ZOC but I thought it only had to respond to the original ZOC and no others. I didn't give in on this one so that the game lasted a few more bounds.
Cheers
Rob

In your example the LH are only ever in the restricted area of one enemy BG at any point in time. Thus the rule about choosing which of the enemy BGs to react to is irrelevant. That rule only applies when a BG is simultaneously within the restricted area of more than one enemy BG.

You correctly reacted to the first enemy BG.

Upon encountering the restricted area of a second enemy BG, you apply the same rule (digital 10-6) all over again but taking account of the movement already made (you don't get a full 'second move'). Namely, apply whichever options are still available to the LH upon entering the second enemy BG's restricted area.

If none of the options is viable then yes you would simply halt upon entering the second enemy BG's restricted area. But I can't see any rule that says you must halt upon reaching a second restricted area.

For example, upon reaching the second enemy BG's restricted area your LH might be able to turn 90 degrees and move away from that enemy. The distance will be determined by how much of their 7MU move remains available and whether or not the move is compliant with the simple/complex move table.

[navigator]

Thanks... I agree with your interpretation and that's how I would have played it....looks like Robert needs to buff up on reading the actual rules before Rome next year !

[petedalby]

It's not getting any better is it Rob? Better luck with the rest of 2014.

[Robert241167]

Cheers Pete, you too mate.

Found out yesterday Paul was using protected Vikings but giving them armour capabilities on the table. Some people just need to stack the deck against you.

Rob

[dave_r]

Cheers Pete, you too mate.

Found out yesterday Paul was using protected Vikings but giving them armour capabilities on the table. Some people just need to stack the deck against you.

Rob

So you need to look at the army list books as well as the rule book

[grahambriggs]

Thanks Graham

Paul mentioned interceptions happen before charges as per the sequence so I couldn't do any charges until he had done the intercept.

Rob

I believe you may have come to the wrong conclusion there. You said Paul's BG could not intercept the second BG without the step forward. So I assume the cavalry were not in the ZOI of Paul's BG. Look at the Sequence of charge responses section at the top of page 74 (9-20). It says:

"Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence at the end of the book" - fair enough. responses come before charges. But note the word "Each". It continues though: ", but if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned." So you do responses to charge 1 first, then charge 1, then responses to charge 2, then charge 2.

So you, the active player, choose to do the cavalry charge first. Paul does any responses to it. The flanking unit won't be able to intercept, because the cavalry are not in the ZOI. So the cavalry complete their charge. Then the knights get toasted.

[grahambriggs]

Secondly I had a BG of LH pinned to it's front and I retired the LH straight back it's full distance. In doing this it crossed the ZOC of another BG. Paul thought it should stop at the point of hitting this new ZOC but I thought it only had to respond to the original ZOC and no others. I didn't give in on this one so that the game lasted a few more bounds.
Cheers
Rob

In your example the LH are only ever in the restricted area of one enemy BG at any point in time. Thus the rule about choosing which of the enemy BGs to react to is irrelevant. That rule only applies when a BG is simultaneously within the restricted area of more than one enemy BG.

You correctly reacted to the first enemy BG.

Upon encountering the restricted area of a second enemy BG, you apply the same rule (digital 10-6) all over again but taking account of the movement already made (you don't get a full 'second move'). Namely, apply whichever options are still available to the LH upon entering the second enemy BG's restricted area.

If none of the options is viable then yes you would simply halt upon entering the second enemy BG's restricted area. But I can't see any rule that says you must halt upon reaching a second restricted area.

For example, upon reaching the second enemy BG's restricted area your LH might be able to turn 90 degrees and move away from that enemy. The distance will be determined by how much of their 7MU move remains available and whether or not the move is compliant with the simple/complex move table.

I agree with the general conclusion. However, it may be that you cannot enter the second RA at all, so presumably would stop just before it.

I don't think your example in the last paragraph is correct. Because there is no permitted move which is "turn 180, move, turn 90, move again".

[grahambriggs]

3. There was a third query. My knights had a target straight ahead in open terrain so I tested 'not to charge'. However there was a rough terrain piece to my left. If my knights had veered off course slightly they could have crossed the terrain and ended their move partly in it and disordered yet still contacting the enemy. Therefore reading the rules implies if my knights' could' have ended the move in the terrain then they did not need to charge... even though by going straight ahead they would have been ok . seems a little bizarre.. any comments

HNY etc

So presumably it would only be one base in the terrain (otherwise you'd be caught by the 'can't wheel to have less dice' rule). I seem to remember there was a v1 thread on this (and the context hasn't changed that much). We did have author comment at the time but can't 100% recall which way it went. I suspect it was a 'don't be silly of course they have to test' type response. But you're right, the literal reading suggests they don't test.

[zoltan]

[quote="I agree with the general conclusion. However, it may be that you cannot enter the second RA at all, so presumably would stop just before it.

I don't think your example in the last paragraph is correct. Because there is no permitted move which is "turn 180, move, turn 90, move again".[/quote]

Fair enough, so in pretty much all cases the moving BG will have to stop when reaching a second restricted area as it's further movement options will be very limited (if any).

[zoltan]

Thanks Graham

Paul mentioned interceptions happen before charges as per the sequence so I couldn't do any charges until he had done the intercept.

Rob

I believe you may have come to the wrong conclusion there. You said Paul's BG could not intercept the second BG without the step forward. So I assume the cavalry were not in the ZOI of Paul's BG. Look at the Sequence of charge responses section at the top of page 74 (9-20). It says:

"Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence at the end of the book" - fair enough. responses come before charges. But note the word "Each". It continues thouh: ", but if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned." So you do responses to charge 1 first, then charge 1, then responses to charge 2, then charge 2.

So you, the active player, choose to do the cavalry charge first. Paul does any responses to it. The flanking unit won't be able to intercept, because the cavalry are not in the ZOI. So the cavalry complete their charge. Then the knights get toasted.

This is an area where Graham and others have had differing opinions for many years. Graham has consistently stated that you do the following sequence:

Respond to charge 1
Move charge 1

Respond to charge 2
Move charge 2 etc etc

Others do the following sequence:

Respond to all charges
Do all charges

I don't think we've ever had a definitive ruling on these alternative approaches and have simply agreed to disagree on the basis that it seldom makes a material difference on the tabletop.

[bbotus]

This is an area where Graham and others have had differing opinions for many years. Graham has consistently stated that you do the following sequence:

Respond to charge 1
Move charge 1

Respond to charge 2
Move charge 2 etc etc

Others do the following sequence:

Respond to all charges
Do all charges

I don't think we've ever had a definitive ruling on these alternative approaches and have simply agreed to disagree on the basis that it seldom makes a material difference on the tabletop.

This one came up again? I thought V2 answered that question definitively. Page 74 says to action the charges in the order listed in the full turn sequence in the back of the book. In V1 the full turn sequence chart just said to make routs, intercepts, evades, etc in that order. Some people had the idea that you would do one charge sequence and then go though all those steps again for the next charge.

V2 Full Turn Sequence now says: Make ALL intercepts, make ALL evades (my emphasis on 'all'). Then it says to make all charge moves IN ANY ORDER (my emphasis again). So all intercepts and then all evades are done before any charging units are moved. The cav gets caught.

However, once you start moving charging units, you get to chose the order in which they charge. It can make a difference.

[zoltan]

This is an area where Graham and others have had differing opinions for many years. Graham has consistently stated that you do the following sequence:

Respond to charge 1
Move charge 1

Respond to charge 2
Move charge 2 etc etc

Others do the following sequence:

Respond to all charges
Do all charges

I don't think we've ever had a definitive ruling on these alternative approaches and have simply agreed to disagree on the basis that it seldom makes a material difference on the tabletop.

This one came up again? I thought V2 answered that question definitively. Page 74 says to action the charges in the order listed in the full turn sequence in the back of the book. In V1 the full turn sequence chart just said to make routs, intercepts, evades, etc in that order. Some people had the idea that you would do one charge sequence and then go though all those steps again for the next charge.

V2 Full Turn Sequence now says: Make ALL intercepts, make ALL evades (my emphasis on 'all'). Then it says to make all charge moves IN ANY ORDER (my emphasis again). So all intercepts and then all evades are done before any charging units are moved. The cav gets caught.

However, once you start moving charging units, you get to chose the order in which they charge. It can make a difference.

You are quite right, v2 DID resolve this one by making explicit wording changes to the Full Turn Sequence in Appendix 8. So Graham's comment above (deal with each charge/intercept/response one at a time) is wrong.

[navigator]

thanks for all the comments; very helpful...

re sequencing of charges. the situation arose only because Robert's knights failed their test not to charge thereby charging and triggering the intercept charge. Had Robert chosen to charge then I presume he could have charged his cav first and this would have avoided them being hit in the flank by my intercept...

yes I cheated re misusing some protected hf as armoured.. by mistake naturally. As it was a fun friendly game I am sure Robert didn't mind really. I must scribble my lists more clearly in future