Backstory & Dialogue Feedback

[richmcd]

I didn't particularly notice an imbalance. But then I didn't see any of my political/religious/scientific views referenced or lampooned, and I read it pretty quickly. Which bit did you think people might object to? Normally I'd be more gung-ho, but I think it probably is best to play it safe in this case, especially since the backstory doesn't really make its way too much into the game.

I made a separate thread about the notes I made on the flavour text during my first playthrough. I didn't want to clog up this post too much. Some of it should be useful if you're doing a last minute check, because there are a few errors that just need a quick fix. But a lot of it was written under the assumption that there was a fair bit of time and resources available to work on it, which may not be true. You may have to settle for a patch job.

[GriddleOctopus]

@richmcd Oh, I'm definitely here as a response to player feedback - and tonight's my last chance to affect the printed manual, so I'm trying to change problematic aspects in that right now (mainly timeline problems, caused by shifting backstories around to fit everyone's origins into the 21st century.)

I'm going to have another chance to go over the in-game dialogue and text over the weekend. There are bits of it (like the backstory and fiction) that I wrote and bits I haven't touched yet. I'm just reading over your post in the other thread which lists a lot of that and I'll fix all that I can. Yes, there's a *lot* to do.

@jdmillard I don't have a cause. I'm just writing a posited future history of the world given current trends and a slight irreverent spin. If you could tell me what it is that's offended you, then I can see if it's gratuitous?

[richmcd]

Ah. Makes sense. I have a fond memory of printed manuals from when I was young, but I haven't seen one in a while. It's awkward that they have to be available for the printers so far in advance. It seems to hamstring a lot of potential change.

Oh well. Check it carefully! I remember my Caesar III manual had a rather dull appendix listing buildings and costs, including an entry that simply said "WHAT THE HELL IS THIS SHIT???" Which was delightful for a British 10-year-old, but probably not so fun for the guys at Sierra HQ.

Sorry if the other thread sounds like I'm teaching you to suck eggs! I've been working with a German client this week and I'm still in "back-to-basics" mode. Any idea how much text is there in the game? 40k words? That feels like a terrible guess, and I can't even tell in which direction.

[jdmillard]

Offend isn't the right word. My comments were simply motivated by the fact that I detected the liberal point-of-view. The truth is that I doubt that people will be alienated by a liberal earth history as long as those philosophies aren't preached during the game (which doesn't seem to be the case for the most part). I originally hesitated to say anything for fear of the thread's degradation into a political showdown. I was actually half-way through making a list of comments, but I stopped and deleted it because it wouldn't really accomplish anything. If you want to know my thoughts, create a "Political and Philosophical Ideology Behind Earth's Pre-Pandora History Debate" thread. I'd enjoy a tasteful debate in that thread, but I'm just going to leave it at that for now before this entire thread becomes a regret and a distraction from the purpose of the Beta Forum.

[SephiRok]

40 k words sounds quite accurate. Dan also wrote some awesome short stories for the factions, which will be in the manual. The current lore document is more of an intermediate thing, it also contains some errors and plot holes, which should be fixed with the manual.

[dalves]

I have just noticed and the dialogue option of Divine Ascendancy to propose a non aggression pact starts talking about how Lady Pax appeared in a golden shower. I had heard some friends using that expression with another meaning and a quick search on google confirmed that this expression has some nasty meanings. Perhaps a shower of gold would be better?

[Strategia]

I have just noticed and the dialogue option of Divine Ascendancy to propose a non aggression pact starts talking about how Lady Pax appeared in a golden shower. I had heard some friends using that expression with another meaning and a quick search on google confirmed that this expression has some nasty meanings. Perhaps a shower of gold would be better?

.....yeah, that kind of made me go "wait, what" too when I first saw it. I assumed it meant "a shower of gold", but I couldn't help but wonder if it was some old habit of hers from her wild days which she never gave up.....

[ElegantCaveman]

In the 6th paragraph of the Compendium entry for the Solar Dynasty (starts with "His clone-son, Yun Xi, became prime minister..."), there are words that need to be switched near the end:

Second-to-last sentence starts with "His also people built..." and should be "His people also built...".

[dysomniak]

I guess I'll just post here to say that I also feel the humor doesn't quite "work" for me. Maybe it's just not well fleshed out enough? For instance the "buy my little red book" line, while I could concoct a future scenario in which chinese "communism" was so debased that this might be plausible (and I know some self avowed Maoists who would likely say it's at least half there already), my first reaction to wonder if the author knew anything about the real world history of china at all. Likewise the daffy tree huggers, the evil megacorp, etc. As someone articulated above the humor just doesn't seem well integrated into the rest of the game. And that's really a damn shame, because I would dearly love to see a 4x game with a properly wicked sense of humour infused throughout.

Also, I feel bad about complaining at all since I've been having a lot of fun with this game (no risk of me booting up Civ V, Warlock, or even Endless Space until the beta is over at least) and I know I'll be buying this eventually no matter what (though currently it's feeling more like a "wait for at least 50% off" than "buy as soon as I can afford it" (Then again very few games make the latter list, and if this debuts in the vicinity of say 15 USD I'll be sorely tempted))

[CptBlackPuppy]

Hey there, I just started joining the beta, but I do write freelance once in a while so I'd like to give you a bit of advice.

Take yourself seriously... Seriously.

While I can get that you want to go with certain angles of humor, I found it much more charming when the actual individual factions (Alpha Centauri) were so hell-bent on their own intentions without even trying to be funny. That would allow some people to either take it as a joke or see that the world is pretty damn fucked up.

You could add individual stories to each faction as well as a mini-novel discussing life in Pandora- and then take segments from that to add into the game when encountering new species or events.

I'd heavily suggest creating a character sheet for each faction(leader) and figure out if they would actually say X. For example, the tree hugging faction could be less tree-hugging more, DO NOT DARE DEFILE OUR LAND. That would create more of an impetus to declare war.

The gameplay is solid, but the writing is a bit lacking.

[GriddleOctopus]

In the 6th paragraph of the Compendium entry for the Solar Dynasty (starts with "His clone-son, Yun Xi, became prime minister..."), there are words that need to be switched near the end:

Second-to-last sentence starts with "His also people built..." and should be "His people also built...".

Okay, thanks! Good spot.

[GriddleOctopus]

I have just noticed and the dialogue option of Divine Ascendancy to propose a non aggression pact starts talking about how Lady Pax appeared in a golden shower. I had heard some friends using that expression with another meaning and a quick search on google confirmed that this expression has some nasty meanings. Perhaps a shower of gold would be better?

.....yeah, that kind of made me go "wait, what" too when I first saw it. I assumed it meant "a shower of gold", but I couldn't help but wonder if it was some old habit of hers from her wild days which she never gave up.....

Ha, yes, a reference to Zeus gone awry there. She's written as an opportunistic pantheist with a hedonistic background. There's a short story and faction history which fleshes her out and which might mean that line was appropriate - but I'll probably change it anyway. Thanks!

[GriddleOctopus]

I guess I'll just post here to say that I also feel the humor doesn't quite "work" for me. Maybe it's just not well fleshed out enough? For instance the "buy my little red book" line, while I could concoct a future scenario in which chinese "communism" was so debased that this might be plausible (and I know some self avowed Maoists who would likely say it's at least half there already), my first reaction to wonder if the author knew anything about the real world history of china at all. Likewise the daffy tree huggers, the evil megacorp, etc. As someone articulated above the humor just doesn't seem well integrated into the rest of the game. And that's really a damn shame, because I would dearly love to see a 4x game with a properly wicked sense of humour infused throughout.

Yep, I'm a politics / philosophy / economics graduate, so I do know the recent history of China. The Solar Dynasty faction, in our backstory, is the CPC turned into something more akin to North Korea or France under Louis XIV - a ruler's personal possession that's exploited ostensibly for the glory of its people, even if the people have to suffer horribly - but mainly run for the glory of its leader. That 'red book' line is a bit overdone, but is meant to represent that authoritarian capitalism that's taken over.

I do understand your comments on the humour though, and I'm doing a second pass at the moment to try to iron out any elements that stick out as silly. (We are trying to avoid just remaking Alpha Centauri though, so a lot of that, uh, factional 'quirkiness' is probably going to stick around in the final release.)

So please keep the feedback coming on any lines which strike you like that!

[lcjr]

Divine Ascencion when offering a treaty, non-aggression(?) , starts off with "it came to me in a golden shower". Is that supposed to be joke or you never heard of that particular sexual fetish?

[GriddleOctopus]

Divine Ascencion when offering a treaty, non-aggression(?) , starts off with "it came to me in a golden shower". Is that supposed to be joke or you never heard of that particular sexual fetish?

It's mentioned above, it's a classical reference (Zeus came to Danae in a golden shower) which is going to be changed. Thanks for the heads-up though!

[dalves]

I have heard of the mythological reference, that's why I suggested to change it to "shower of gold". I think it will be able to keep the intended meaning, while avoiding that unfortunate reference. Well, I hope so, I'm not a native speaker.

[ElegantCaveman]

From Danaë's Wikipedia article:

Zeus came to her in the form of golden rain

Danaë reclining with Zeus as the shower of gold depicted on a vase 450-425 BC

Part of me wants you to keep "golden shower", because it makes it hilarious, but yeah, there are plenty of alternatives.

My vote goes to "shower of gold". Perhaps "a shower of golden rain", if you want to make sure nobody thinks about gold bricks or doubloons falling from the sky or something?

[Strategia]

Yep, I'm a politics / philosophy / economics graduate, so I do know the recent history of China. The Solar Dynasty faction, in our backstory, is the CPC turned into something more akin to North Korea or France under Louis XIV - a ruler's personal possession that's exploited ostensibly for the glory of its people, even if the people have to suffer horribly - but mainly run for the glory of its leader. That 'red book' line is a bit overdone, but is meant to represent that authoritarian capitalism that's taken over.

North Korea is right, Louis XIV less so. Referencing Italian fascism, Stalinism, and other personalised ideologies with corporatist elements might be more appropriate. Louis XIV's reputation as an all-encompassing egomaniac is not entirely undeserved, but the usual picture of him is greatly exaggerated. The ostentatious displays and ridiculous court proceedings were his way of keeping the high nobility in check, by making them obsessed with him, so they wouldn't rebel; he grew up during a civil war between different factions of nobles called the Fronde. Behind the scenes, he was a competent administrator who spent a lot of time (for his time period, at least) attending to matters of the state; he reformed the bureaucracy, greatly increased royal revenues, and practically invented the ministerial system of government administration, filling the high government positions with common people who displayed exceptional skill (like his finance minister Jean-Baptiste Colbert, who was a genius administrator) rather than people of noble birth. He took the reins of a nation in civil war, and turned it into the most prominent, powerful country in continental Europe west of the Vistula. He only "exploited" his people in the sense of building a stronger, more reliable system of taxation.

I'm a history graduate

[GriddleOctopus]

Haha! He also had the ethos of 'gloire', which meant he devoted the state to showing the glory of France, the French people, his family and himself - in reverse order - even if the country as a whole was bled white by the relentless wars up to 1715.

Less relevantly, yes, whilst he did create the first modern bureaucracy, by imposing the Intendants on the regions as a way of keeping the unruly local assemblies in check, it was still a very primitive administration - and it's a question how far that's down to him, Colbert or Mazarin. And there are all modern interpretations - Versailles as a trap for the nobility, him as an excellent administrator, gloire, etc - all we can actually see is a powerful, warmongering king who surrounded himself with excellent servants and centralised power.

(I studied Louis at school too. I have a minor crush on Vauban).

[ElegantCaveman]

A couple of issues in the mouse-over descriptions for diplomatic actions (links are to screenshots):

Open Borders

Allows both factions to enter each others controlled territories.

Pretty sure that should be "each other's territory"; missing apostrophe.

Demand Tribute

Usually a sign of dominance of one faction over another, asking for financial tribute as well as not paying the tribute has a negative impact on the relationship between both factions.

Not wrong, per se, but the structure here feels a bit off to me.

Perhaps something like this instead?

"Usually a sign of dominance of one faction over another. Asking for financial tribute (as well as not paying the tribute) has a negative impact on the relationship between both factions."

Alternatively, you could go with a semicolon & dash mix (I'm presonally fond of em, but you could go with en):

"Usually a sign of dominance of one faction over another; asking for financial tribute—as well as not paying the tribute—has a negative impact on the relationship between both factions."