Am creating new balanced MP scenarios
Moderators: Slitherine Core, Panzer Corps Design, Panzer Corps Moderators
Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
Nicely laid out, looks very impressive!
I have found some info on the composition of the air forces on the Eastern Front: http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.nl/2 ... h-and.html , and I have a few notes to go with it. The inclusion of Stukas and especially the Bf110 is how it was early in the war, during 1943 these aircraft were increasingly unfit for their designed roles. The Bf110 had a new career as a night fighter, and the Stuka eventually ended up as a night harassment aircraft. The ground attack role was taken over by the FW 190. So I would include some FW 190 F or G.
Some more thoughts: The He 177 was used in very small numbers, the He 111 was a lot more common. The Soviet Pe-8 was very rare aircraft, and on the other hand the Pe-2 was very common. The Soviets never really produced a SPAAG (self-propelled AAA), the T-90 is more or less a prototype, so could be replaced by the lend-lease MGMC M16? Speaking of Lend-Lease, I would put a raw figure of 5-10% of armoured vehicles being Western models. Of course, they were distributed very unevenly so maybe it is better to ignore them. But as long as you are happy with the units it doesn't matter much.
I have found some info on the composition of the air forces on the Eastern Front: http://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.nl/2 ... h-and.html , and I have a few notes to go with it. The inclusion of Stukas and especially the Bf110 is how it was early in the war, during 1943 these aircraft were increasingly unfit for their designed roles. The Bf110 had a new career as a night fighter, and the Stuka eventually ended up as a night harassment aircraft. The ground attack role was taken over by the FW 190. So I would include some FW 190 F or G.
Some more thoughts: The He 177 was used in very small numbers, the He 111 was a lot more common. The Soviet Pe-8 was very rare aircraft, and on the other hand the Pe-2 was very common. The Soviets never really produced a SPAAG (self-propelled AAA), the T-90 is more or less a prototype, so could be replaced by the lend-lease MGMC M16? Speaking of Lend-Lease, I would put a raw figure of 5-10% of armoured vehicles being Western models. Of course, they were distributed very unevenly so maybe it is better to ignore them. But as long as you are happy with the units it doesn't matter much.
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the_iron_duke
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Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
You're right about the SP AA - I'll change it to the lend-lease half-track AA.
The problem with including Pe-2s is they're so cheap (220pts) and weak, but the only other Soviet tactical bomber available is the Il-2/Il-2M3. I included one Pe-2 for historicity and variety but thought if I included one of them I should also include a Stuka, which is similar but a bit better at bombing, for the Germans. The Stuka had been widely used but it's true that it was going out of fashion - "on 26 October 1943, General der Schlachtflieger Ernst Kupfer reported the Ju 87 could no longer survive in operations and that the Focke-Wulf Fw 190F should take its place" (wiki). So if I did include one then it would represent the Stuka's last hurrah.
I just don't think it would be balanced in game-terms to include a Pe-2 and not try and counterbalance it with a Stuka. The alternative is to abandon the Pe-2 and field three Il-2 Shturmoviks. Or I could try and find a configuration with four Soviet tactical bombers - two Pe-2s and two Shturmoviks.
It comes down to whether the Pe-2s are to be included at all. I'm not sure if they are worth it in the game. Are they just going to get destroyed immediately by the powerful German fighters and so a bit of a waste of points? Any thoughts?
I'm open to re-assessing the air composition but sorting the Pe-2s' status is the key.
Also, to avoid the unit-upgrading issue, the scenario will be set in 43AD.
The problem with including Pe-2s is they're so cheap (220pts) and weak, but the only other Soviet tactical bomber available is the Il-2/Il-2M3. I included one Pe-2 for historicity and variety but thought if I included one of them I should also include a Stuka, which is similar but a bit better at bombing, for the Germans. The Stuka had been widely used but it's true that it was going out of fashion - "on 26 October 1943, General der Schlachtflieger Ernst Kupfer reported the Ju 87 could no longer survive in operations and that the Focke-Wulf Fw 190F should take its place" (wiki). So if I did include one then it would represent the Stuka's last hurrah.
I just don't think it would be balanced in game-terms to include a Pe-2 and not try and counterbalance it with a Stuka. The alternative is to abandon the Pe-2 and field three Il-2 Shturmoviks. Or I could try and find a configuration with four Soviet tactical bombers - two Pe-2s and two Shturmoviks.
It comes down to whether the Pe-2s are to be included at all. I'm not sure if they are worth it in the game. Are they just going to get destroyed immediately by the powerful German fighters and so a bit of a waste of points? Any thoughts?
I'm open to re-assessing the air composition but sorting the Pe-2s' status is the key.
Also, to avoid the unit-upgrading issue, the scenario will be set in 43AD.
Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
I should have made my comment more clearly, sorry about that. Of course the Stuka can stay, I wasn't trying so suggest you get rid of it, I was just trying to point out the changing nature of the frontline equipment during 1943. The Stuka was still used, but the daylight ground-attack role ('Schlacht') was being shifted towards the FW 190 in 1943.
My main observation was about the Bf110, which was generally not used a tactical bomber anymore in 1943, instead they were used as nightfighters and recon, so I suggested the FW 190 as a more appropiate substitute.
About the Pe-2, it isn't very good, but it is very cheap, so it's 'good' in a sense that it is good value for money. As a random idea, why not trade in the Pe-8 for two Pe-2? I like the Pe-8, but it was a very rare aircraft, with never more than about 100 in use.
One of the problems of PzC is that the game system does not portray numerical superiority well, other than through cost. On big maps with large forces, it is less of a problem, but combat is still dominated by quality, not quantity. This issue was present during the beta testing of Allied Corps, and several different systems were tested to better simulate having quantity instead of quality, with mixed results.
The Western Allies are already difficult to represent, the Soviets even more so, and sometimes you have to work around the limitations and compromise. One of the compromises is the equipment file, which is easily modded, but some of the values aren't balanced properly in stock form. So it's tricky to depend on the stock file, even though overall it's quite good.
When you are aiming for a specific goal the stock values can sometimes limit your options. The big bump in effectiveness of the T-34 -1943 model is not very historical, for example. But your basic system seems sound, at least you are not trying to achieve a 100% historical force, which is basically impossible without 'house rules' and modding other parameters as well. So I wouldn't worry too much about the exact force composition and matching prestige values, but see how it works out in practice, and just fudge the numbers until you end up with something you like.
My main observation was about the Bf110, which was generally not used a tactical bomber anymore in 1943, instead they were used as nightfighters and recon, so I suggested the FW 190 as a more appropiate substitute.
About the Pe-2, it isn't very good, but it is very cheap, so it's 'good' in a sense that it is good value for money. As a random idea, why not trade in the Pe-8 for two Pe-2? I like the Pe-8, but it was a very rare aircraft, with never more than about 100 in use.
One of the problems of PzC is that the game system does not portray numerical superiority well, other than through cost. On big maps with large forces, it is less of a problem, but combat is still dominated by quality, not quantity. This issue was present during the beta testing of Allied Corps, and several different systems were tested to better simulate having quantity instead of quality, with mixed results.
The Western Allies are already difficult to represent, the Soviets even more so, and sometimes you have to work around the limitations and compromise. One of the compromises is the equipment file, which is easily modded, but some of the values aren't balanced properly in stock form. So it's tricky to depend on the stock file, even though overall it's quite good.
When you are aiming for a specific goal the stock values can sometimes limit your options. The big bump in effectiveness of the T-34 -1943 model is not very historical, for example. But your basic system seems sound, at least you are not trying to achieve a 100% historical force, which is basically impossible without 'house rules' and modding other parameters as well. So I wouldn't worry too much about the exact force composition and matching prestige values, but see how it works out in practice, and just fudge the numbers until you end up with something you like.
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the_iron_duke
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Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
Here's an alternative air line-up which would work points-wise:
3 x Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighters
3 x Focke-Wulf Fw 190A fighters
3 x Focke-Wulf Fw 190F tactical bombers
2 x Heinkel He 111H2 strategic bombers
1 x Dornier 217E strategic bomber
--------------
4 x Lavochkin La-5 fighters
4 x Yakovlev Yak 9-D fighters
3 x Il-2 Shturmovik or Il-2M3 tactical bombers
3 x Ilyushin Il-4 strategic bombers
3 x Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighters
3 x Focke-Wulf Fw 190A fighters
3 x Focke-Wulf Fw 190F tactical bombers
2 x Heinkel He 111H2 strategic bombers
1 x Dornier 217E strategic bomber
--------------
4 x Lavochkin La-5 fighters
4 x Yakovlev Yak 9-D fighters
3 x Il-2 Shturmovik or Il-2M3 tactical bombers
3 x Ilyushin Il-4 strategic bombers
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the_iron_duke
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Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
Have changed weather again to:
15% Cloud
10% Rain
5% Snow
Dropped moisture level to 0.
I've changed the starting positions of the recon units with German recons moved backwards and Russian recons advanced. This is to try and ensure both armies are able to capture the flags in their map half before the other side can get to them.
I think I'll go with the aircraft line-up shown above as it's historical and fairly balanced. There is a 14 point difference between the total points cost of the two armies - 21,250 vs 21,264.
15% Cloud
10% Rain
5% Snow
Dropped moisture level to 0.
I've changed the starting positions of the recon units with German recons moved backwards and Russian recons advanced. This is to try and ensure both armies are able to capture the flags in their map half before the other side can get to them.
I think I'll go with the aircraft line-up shown above as it's historical and fairly balanced. There is a 14 point difference between the total points cost of the two armies - 21,250 vs 21,264.
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the_iron_duke
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Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the cost of non-elite replacements is 20-25% of a unit's total cost (per point). Each army is just over 21,000 points in total. So the army could replenish itself completely for around 5,000 points (if no units were eliminated). To earn that would take 20 turns at 250 points per turn (a couple of turns less with the captured flags windfall first time round). It would be 33 turns at 150 points per turn (three turns less for captured flags).
I'm thinking that it would be best to have the two armies be able to replenish 50-100% of their losses in a whole game. So a ballpark figure of 2500 to 5000 points in a game for each army.
One option could be to just give the prestige up front, rather than doing it on a turn-by-turn basis. Since purchasing or upgrading units is disabled, the only thing prestige can be spent on is reinforcements. Can you see any flaws with doing things this way?
It would probably alter the tempo of the game as one would be able to reinforce as much as one liked for the early part of the game. It would mean that it could be quicker to replenish a part of an army if it had taken a tactical setback leading to heavy losses (if some prestige hadn't been saved up). This is negated a little by the way units lose cohesion/get suppressed when reinforcing, so badly damaged units need to withdraw away from the front line to reinforce safely.
Up front prestige is certainly an option, I'm just not sure if it would improve or if it would weaken the scenario - perhaps an increase in tempo would be good for a multiplayer game?
I'm thinking that it would be best to have the two armies be able to replenish 50-100% of their losses in a whole game. So a ballpark figure of 2500 to 5000 points in a game for each army.
One option could be to just give the prestige up front, rather than doing it on a turn-by-turn basis. Since purchasing or upgrading units is disabled, the only thing prestige can be spent on is reinforcements. Can you see any flaws with doing things this way?
It would probably alter the tempo of the game as one would be able to reinforce as much as one liked for the early part of the game. It would mean that it could be quicker to replenish a part of an army if it had taken a tactical setback leading to heavy losses (if some prestige hadn't been saved up). This is negated a little by the way units lose cohesion/get suppressed when reinforcing, so badly damaged units need to withdraw away from the front line to reinforce safely.
Up front prestige is certainly an option, I'm just not sure if it would improve or if it would weaken the scenario - perhaps an increase in tempo would be good for a multiplayer game?
Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
To be exact, it's 25% for green replacements, elite reinforcements are 100%. These costs are during battles only, in between scenarios it's cheaper, but that's not applicable here.the_iron_duke wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the cost of non-elite replacements is 20-25% of a unit's total cost (per point).
That depends on how you want to limit the players' tactical options. If you give everything in advance it might encourage broad 'rush' strategies, because you can quickly replace early losses with all that prestige in the bank. This will enable risk-taking players to quickly gain a fair number of extra points by capturing cities, and consoldidate by rotating damaged units and fixing them out of reach of their opponent, as you describe.One option could be to just give the prestige up front, rather than doing it on a turn-by-turn basis. Since purchasing or upgrading units is disabled, the only thing prestige can be spent on is reinforcements. Can you see any flaws with doing things this way?
It would probably alter the tempo of the game as one would be able to reinforce as much as one liked for the early part of the game. It would mean that it could be quicker to replenish a part of an army if it had taken a tactical setback leading to heavy losses (if some prestige hadn't been saved up). This is negated a little by the way units lose cohesion/get suppressed when reinforcing, so badly damaged units need to withdraw away from the front line to reinforce safely.
It doesn't matter to me, but since units close to the front can be brought up to strength quickly there is little deterrent for this kind of tactic. But I'm not sure how much freedom you will allow people to exploit the nature of reinforcements? People can still 'rush' if they receive a few points every turn, as they can use capture points for extra expenses, but this tactic is a lot more risky to do so with many units and limited prestige. And of course you can give some prestige up front, and a low rate each turn, as a compromise.
As an idea, if you want the scenario to 'end' naturally, you can simply drop prestige injections to zero after a fixed number of turns. Just put an in-game message, stating somthing like 'these are the last reinforcements HQ can spare you, good luck', give them a last (decent) amount, and it's slow death from then on. As an afterthought, it might be a good idea to explain your scenario rules (no purchasing, etc.) in a message on the first turn, to help people get in the game more easily?
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the_iron_duke
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Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
My current thinking is that the overall amount of prestige each army should get would be more like 2,500 rather than 5,000. If it is done on a prestige-per-turn basis then I am thinking as low as 50 points a turn. Both armies will quickly get 500 or so points from capturing flags. So after 20 turns of 50 points per turn they'd have 2500 points.
Any more thoughts on the historicity of the units before I finalise the orders of battle? One change I am thinking of making is regarding the German SP AA. Only 123 SdKfz 7/2 were built. 319 SdKfz/1 were built. The SdKfz 10/4 was more common but it is quite a weak unit.
Also, when compensating the points difference between the overall armies I am thinking of dividing the figure by 4. So if one side's army has 60 points more than the other they would get 15 extra prestige points at the start.
Also, how would I make a rules message only come up in the first turn then?
And another thing, is there any point in making a scenario picture for a multiplayer game? Where does the picture show up in the game?
Any more thoughts on the historicity of the units before I finalise the orders of battle? One change I am thinking of making is regarding the German SP AA. Only 123 SdKfz 7/2 were built. 319 SdKfz/1 were built. The SdKfz 10/4 was more common but it is quite a weak unit.
Also, when compensating the points difference between the overall armies I am thinking of dividing the figure by 4. So if one side's army has 60 points more than the other they would get 15 extra prestige points at the start.
Also, how would I make a rules message only come up in the first turn then?
And another thing, is there any point in making a scenario picture for a multiplayer game? Where does the picture show up in the game?
Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
I'll comment on your force setup a bit later, I've still got work to do unfortunately. But a few quick answers for now:the_iron_duke wrote:Also, how would I make a rules message only come up in the first turn then?
And another thing, is there any point in making a scenario picture for a multiplayer game? Where does the picture show up in the game?
Scenario picture: it shows up when you start it as a single scenario from the main menu (which can also be used to play MP, in hotseat mode.)
Message: this is easy, you can script messages to appear with the editor. Take a look at the MP map 'Battle of Britain' for example, or any scenario that gives you a message on the first turn (first scenario of Afrika Korps). I'm not sure how good you are with the editor, I think I overestimated it a bit, sorry about that.
In the script editor: 'Add message action', the 'trigger' is the first turn, set it to appear a single time, and do it for both sides, the message can be the same (just type into the message window, if you need special formatting, use HTML coding).
And just to be certain, are you still getting those 'need custom string' warnings? This is usually caused by cities not having a name, but I figured that was not possible due to you mentioning '500' of such messages. An alternative explanation would be that the terrain you placed needs to be named, but that should happen automatically, so I'm still baffled by it. If you playtest your map, do you get the correct terrain name when you hover your cursor over the various hexes?
Because I'm getting the feeling you may have overstated the amount of error messages
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the_iron_duke
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Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
I'll experiment with the script messages in the editor.
The custom string errors I've found out are caused by river hexes so I can fix that.
The custom string errors I've found out are caused by river hexes so I can fix that.
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the_iron_duke
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Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
Oops, elementary maths mistake - it would be about 40 turns at 50 points per turn. I meant 100 prestige points a turn!the_iron_duke wrote:My current thinking is that the overall amount of prestige each army should get would be more like 2,500 rather than 5,000. If it is done on a prestige-per-turn basis then I am thinking as low as 50 points a turn. Both armies will quickly get 500 or so points from capturing flags. So after 20 turns of 50 points per turn they'd have 2500 points.
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the_iron_duke
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Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
I've sorted the ground forces for the post-Normandy scenario - a British Armoured Corps versus a German Panzerkorps. Same formula: three divisions, attached troops and aircraft. The armies are balanced in terms of proportions of different unit types: infantry, artillery, anti-air, armour. Each army also has a parachute brigade of three paratroop units. Infantry will be useful in the denser bocage terrain. The stats for the ground force are: Great Britain, 54 units, 15,645 points; Germans 49 units, 15,727 points.
Next, to work on the air forces. Speaking of which, I'm having trouble finding production numbers and operational use for the Spitfire XIV and so I'm wondering whether it or the Spitfire IX are most suitable for this scenario. If anyone knows.the information would be appreciated.


Next, to work on the air forces. Speaking of which, I'm having trouble finding production numbers and operational use for the Spitfire XIV and so I'm wondering whether it or the Spitfire IX are most suitable for this scenario. If anyone knows.the information would be appreciated.


Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
Well, it depends on your design goals, which are a bit confusing to me sometimes. You want a force that matches in points, that much I understand, and a somewhat historical composition, but I'm not sure how historical you want it to be. I would settle for the SdKfz 7/1, personally, or maybe try to include two SdKfz 10/4.the_iron_duke wrote:Any more thoughts on the historicity of the units before I finalise the orders of battle? One change I am thinking of making is regarding the German SP AA. Only 123 SdKfz 7/2 were built. 319 SdKfz/1 were built. The SdKfz 10/4 was more common but it is quite a weak unit.
I took another look at the air forces, they both cost around 5500-6000 prestige. But the Soviets had a vastly bigger airforce at the time, while the German airforce was undergoing rapid changes. So it's difficult for me to understand what you consider 'historical', but I'll make an attempt at a mid-to late 1943 airforce along what I think are your design criteria.
BTW, I'll try to look into that Spitfire, but I have a few comments (more like questions) about your Eastern Front airforces, I'm curious how historical you want things to be, vs. a balanced map.
Problem is, around the time of Kursk (mid 1943), the Germans still had a huge force of bombers and stukas. So the ground-attack aircraft and medium bombers outnumbered the fighters (Bf 109 and the FW 190 put together!) by 2 to 1. Near the end of 1943, this ratio had changed in somewhat more favour of the fighters, but still not very close to the ratios that your airforce portrays. But I overdosed on fighters and tried to emulate your style:
4x Bf 109G
2x FW 190A
1x FW 190F
1x Bf 110G
1x Ju 87D
2x Ju 88
1x He 111
5371 prestige, if I'm correct? I'm still doubting the Bf 110, at the end of 1943 the nightfighters outnumbered the tactical bombers by 2:1, but it can still be useful in the game. If you replace it by another Ju-87 (if you want), this would also be possible, there were still lots of them assigned. But the problem of the Ju-87 is that they were more and more used at night, but the Stuka in the game in 1943 is a sitting duck, and very difficult to employ. The Ju-87 G was very rare, even more than the Hs 129, but with so many aircraft which were employed in low numbers it is difficult to choose.
BTW, if you want historical representation you would have to halve the number of fighters, while keeping the rest. But that won't be very fun to play with.
The Soviets:
4 x La-5
4x Yak-9D
3x Il2
2x Pe-2
2x Il-4
6052 points.
Actually, there would have to be fewer fighters, as they only made up roughly half of the force. So if you want both forces to be more historical, you can remove a few fighters, but that might seriously upset your system, so I tried to stick to your existing forces as much as possible. But still, the points don't match up very well, I'm afraid.
The ground forces are more difficult for me to judge, as you designed them according to a theoretical goal, which was almost never met in practice. Biggest example is the self-propelled artillery, which was quite rare, but it would be very frustrating to play as the Germans otherwise. And you wouldn't want the Panzer III vs. T-34 model 1943 battles that were typical for the time.
But for me, fun and balance matter most, which seems to be your goal as well, so don't let my ramblings get in the way.
Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
The Spitfire XIV just started being distributed around june 1944, they were available for D-day, but according to a quick count the IX was still used by 27 squadrons and the XIV only by two or three at the time. This is excluding numbers used for the defense of the UK, these are numbers for the tactical airforce that supported the land campaign. The IX was also made in much larger numbers than the XIV, roughly 5700 vs. 1000.the_iron_duke wrote:Next, to work on the air forces. Speaking of which, I'm having trouble finding production numbers and operational use for the Spitfire XIV and so I'm wondering whether it or the Spitfire IX are most suitable for this scenario. If anyone knows.the information would be appreciated.
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the_iron_duke
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Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
I have created an alternative air line-up that would work in terms of points. The proportions of the aircraft categories are closer to the historical, and more aircraft types are represented:
2 x Bf 109G
2 x FW 190A
1 x FW 190F
1 x Bf 110G
1 x Ju 87D
2 x He 111
1 x Ju 88
----
3 x La-5
2 x Yak 9-D
2 x Il-2
2 x Pe-2
3 x Il-4
Here a couple of interesting pages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_air ... rld_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_ ... 1940-1945)
Also, I'm not sure the self-propelled artillery were that rare. I have figures for 676 Wespe and 714 Hummel being built. They were fielded by the Panzer Divisions, mixed together in armoured artillery battalions.
2 x Bf 109G
2 x FW 190A
1 x FW 190F
1 x Bf 110G
1 x Ju 87D
2 x He 111
1 x Ju 88
----
3 x La-5
2 x Yak 9-D
2 x Il-2
2 x Pe-2
3 x Il-4
Here a couple of interesting pages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_air ... rld_War_II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luftwaffe_ ... 1940-1945)
Also, I'm not sure the self-propelled artillery were that rare. I have figures for 676 Wespe and 714 Hummel being built. They were fielded by the Panzer Divisions, mixed together in armoured artillery battalions.
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the_iron_duke
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Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
Another alternative of this is to change Fw 190A for a Bf 109, which is more like the historical proportions and change a Heinkel for a Junkers 88. So it would be:
3 x Bf 109G
1 x FW 190A
1 x FW 190F
1 x Bf 110G
1 x Ju 87D
1 x He 111
2 x Ju 88
----
3 x La-5
2 x Yak 9-D
2 x Il-2
2 x Pe-2
3 x Il-4
I think this version is even more historical.
3 x Bf 109G
1 x FW 190A
1 x FW 190F
1 x Bf 110G
1 x Ju 87D
1 x He 111
2 x Ju 88
----
3 x La-5
2 x Yak 9-D
2 x Il-2
2 x Pe-2
3 x Il-4
I think this version is even more historical.
Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
That last one looks very nice. If you really want to get matching prestige points, you can also play around with the strength of your deployed units, for example you can place a 12-strength airplane to make it more expensive and 'numerous'. But tweaking the prestige given to the players will be easier.
Self-propelled detachment ('Abteilung', not an exact translation, it can also mean battalion)
12 x 105mm self-propelled 'Wespe' (2 batteries)
6 x 150mm self-propelled 'Hummel' (1 battery)
Motorized light detachment
12 x 105mm towed leFH 18 (2 batteries)
Motorized heavy detachment
8 x 150mm sFH 18 (2 batteries)
4 x 100mm K 18 (1 battery) - this gun is not in the game, you can compare it to the 15cm sFH 18
The Allies also seem to match your setups, so that's nice. It's just that when seeing all the divisions with a full complement, it is almost too 'neat' looking. But that's wargaming, I guess...
Yes, that is not a problem, I like the compromise between historical accuracy and fun to play. An ideal (theoretical) Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment in 1944 would apparently have had:the_iron_duke wrote:Also, I'm not sure the self-propelled artillery were that rare. I have figures for 676 Wespe and 714 Hummel being built. They were fielded by the Panzer Divisions, mixed together in armoured artillery battalions.
Self-propelled detachment ('Abteilung', not an exact translation, it can also mean battalion)
12 x 105mm self-propelled 'Wespe' (2 batteries)
6 x 150mm self-propelled 'Hummel' (1 battery)
Motorized light detachment
12 x 105mm towed leFH 18 (2 batteries)
Motorized heavy detachment
8 x 150mm sFH 18 (2 batteries)
4 x 100mm K 18 (1 battery) - this gun is not in the game, you can compare it to the 15cm sFH 18
The Allies also seem to match your setups, so that's nice. It's just that when seeing all the divisions with a full complement, it is almost too 'neat' looking. But that's wargaming, I guess...
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the_iron_duke
- Captain - Bf 110D

- Posts: 862
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:45 pm
Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
Okay, I think that's the armies settled then.ThvN wrote:That last one looks very nice.
Here are the final points tallies:
(Ground units only) [AXIS] Total units: 49 (cost=15501)
(Ground units only) [ALLIES] Total units: 58 (cost=15496)
(Total, inc air) [AXIS] Total units: 59 (cost=19811)
(Total, inc air) [ALLIES] Total units: 70 (cost=19862)
That's similar to the descriptions in the links I posted earlier of Panzer Division organisation from the Records of Headquarters, German Army High Command, National Archives. Here are two descriptions of the Artillery Regiment in a Panzer Division (I've put in italics the relevant bits):ThvN wrote: Yes, that is not a problem, I like the compromise between historical accuracy and fun to play. An ideal (theoretical) Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment in 1944 would apparently have had:
Self-propelled detachment ('Abteilung', not an exact translation, it can also mean battalion)
12 x 105mm self-propelled 'Wespe' (2 batteries)
6 x 150mm self-propelled 'Hummel' (1 battery)
Motorized light detachment
12 x 105mm towed leFH 18 (2 batteries)
Motorized heavy detachment
8 x 150mm sFH 18 (2 batteries)
4 x 100mm K 18 (1 battery) - this gun is not in the game, you can compare it to the 15cm sFH 18
-------------
Organization
German Type 1943 Panzer Division
24 September 1943
Armored Artillery Regiment:
1 Armored Artillery Regimental Staff
1 (mot) Armored Artillery Regimental Staff Company (2 LMGs)
1st Battalion:
1 (self propelled) Battalion Staff
1 (self propelled) Battalion Staff Company (2 LMGs)
2 Light Self Propelled 105mm Batteries
(6 Wespe 105mm howitzer carriages & 5 LMGs ea)
1 Heavy Self Propelled 105mm Batteries
(6 Hummel 150mm howitzer carriages & 5 LMGs)
2nd (mot) Battalion:
1 (mot) Battalion Staff
1 (mot) Battalion Staff Company (2 LMGs)
3 Light (mot) 105mm Batteries
(4 105mm leFH & 5 LMGs ea)
3rd (mot) Battalion:
1 (mot) Battalion Staff
1 (mot) Battalion Staff Company (2 LMGs)
3 Heavy (mot) 150mm Batteries
(4 150mm sFH & 5 LMGs ea)
-------------------------
Organization
German Type 44 Panzer Division
1 August 1944
Armored Artillery Regiment:
1 Armored Artillery Regimental Staff
(organization as of 1 November 1943)
1 (mot) Armored Artillery Regimental Staff Company (2 LMGs)
(organization as of 1 May 1944)
1st Battalion:
1 (self propelled) Battalion Staff
(organization as of 1 April 1944)
1 (self propelled) Battalion Staff Company
(2 LMGs & 3 20mm mountain flak guns)
(organization as of 1 April 1944)
2 Light Self Propelled 105mm Batteries
(organization as of 1 May 1944)
(6 Wespe 105mm howitzer carriages & 4 LMGs ea)
1 Heavy Self Propelled 150mm Battery
(organization as of 1 May 1944)
(6 Hummel 150mm howitzer carriages & 4 LMGs)
2nd (mot) Battalion:
1 (mot) Battalion Staff
(organization as of 1 May 1944)
1 (mot) Battalion Staff Company
(2 LMGs & 3 20mm mountain flak guns)
(organization as of 1 June 1944)
2 Light (mot) 105mm Batteries
(organization as of 1 June 1944)
(6 105mm leFH & 4 LMGs ea)
3rd (mot) Battalion:
1 (mot) Battalion Staff
(organization as of 1 May 1944)
1 (mot) Battalion Staff Company (2 LMGs)
(organization as of 1 June 1944)
(2 LMGs & 3 20mm mountain flak guns)
3 Heavy (mot) 150mm Batteries
(organization as of 1 June 1944)
(4 150mm sFH & 4 LMGs ea)
They all say the same thing in game terms: 1 battalion of 105mm towed artillery, 1 battalion of 150 mm towed artillery and one of self-propelled. The composition of the self-propelled battalion in both the '43 version and '44 versions is 2/3 Wespe, 1/3 Hummel. So it's been rounded down to a Wespe unit in this '43 scenario and the '44 one. The Hummel is quite a powerful artillery unit to include at a divisional level in the game, especially compared with what SP artillery the other armies are using.
Like I said earlier, I like the way each army is like a different chess set which each has its own different strengths and weaknesses. Adding different attached units can customise an army to the task in hand.ThvN wrote: The Allies also seem to match your setups, so that's nice. It's just that when seeing all the divisions with a full complement, it is almost too 'neat' looking. But that's wargaming, I guess...
I have been thinking of combining different division types in a scenario. Perhaps for the Germans, one Panzer Division, one Panzergrenadier Division, one infantry division and a brigades's worth of alpine.
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the_iron_duke
- Captain - Bf 110D

- Posts: 862
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:45 pm
Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
Here is the final order of battle with the unit designations I will use. Different armies used different conventions - in the German army, for example, for battalions within regiments the Roman numeral would come before the regiment number, e.g. II/36. I've decided to go for a standardized system for all the armies - division number, then regiment/brigade (or non-regimental battalion) and then regimental battalion (in Roman numerals).
GERMAN FORCES
1st Panzer Division:
1. 1/I - Panther A tank
1. 1/II - Panzer IVH tank
1. 4/I - Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
1. 4/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
1. 7/I - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
1. 7/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
1. 10/I - Wespe self-propelled artillery
1. 10/II - 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
1. 10/III - 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
1. 13 - SdKfz 232 8Rad recon armoured car
1. 16 - StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
1. 19 - 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed anti-air
1. 22 - Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track) engineers
2nd Panzer Division:
2. 2/I - Panther A tank
2. 2/II - Panzer IVH tank
2. 5/I - Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
2. 5/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
2. 8/I - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
2. 8/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
2. 11/I - Wespe self-propelled artillery
2. 11/II - 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
2. 11/III - 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
2. 14 - SdKfz 232 8Rad recon armoured car
2. 17 - StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
2. 20 - 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed anti-air
2. 23 - Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track) engineers
3rd Panzer Division:
3. 3/I - Panther A tank
3. 3/II - Panzer IVH tank
3. 6/I - Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
3. 6/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
3. 9/I - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
3. 9/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
3. 12/I - Wespe self-propelled artillery
3. 12/II - 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
3. 12/III - 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
3. 15 - SdKfz 232 8Rad recon armoured car
3. 18 - StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
3. 21 - 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed anti-air
3. 24 - Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track) engineers
Attached supporting units [Unterstellt]:
U. 25 - Tiger I heavy tank
U. 26 - Panzerwerfer 42 self-propelled artillery
U. 27/I - 21 cm Mrs 18 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy artillery
U. 27/II - 21 cm Mrs 18 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy artillery
U. 28/I - SdKfz 7/1 self-propelled anti-air
U. 28/II - 8.8 cm FlaK 36 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy anti-air
U. 28/III - 8.8 cm FlaK 36 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy anti-air
U. 29 - Fallschirmjager 43 paratrooper
U. 30 - Bruckenpioniere (w/ Opel Blitz truck) bridge engineer
U. 31 - Kradschutzen motorcycle
Aircraft [Luftwaffe]:
L. 32/I - Focke-Wulf Fw 190A fighter
L. 32/II - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter
L. 32/III - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter
L. 32/IV - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter
L. 33/I - Focke-Wulf Fw 190F tactical bomber
L. 33/II - Messerchmitt Bf 110G tactical bomber
L. 33/III - Junkers Ju 87D tactical bomber
L. 34/I - Junkers Ju 88A strategic bomber
L. 34/II - Junkers Ju 88A strategic bomber
L. 34/III - Heinkel He 111H2 strategic bomber
----------------------------------------
SOVIET FORCES
1st Guards Mechanized Corps:
1. 1/I - T-34/43 tank
1. 1/II - T-34/43 tank
1. 4/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 4/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 7/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 7/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 10/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 10/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 13/I - SU-76 self-propelled artillery
1. 13/II - 122mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
1. 13/III - 76.2mm M1942 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
1. 16 - BA-64 recon
1. 19 - SU-85 self-propelled anti-tank
1. 22 - 37mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed anti-air
1. 25 - Soviet Eng 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2nd Guards Mechanized Corps:
2. 2/I - T-34/43 tank
2. 2/II - T-34/43 tank
2. 5/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 5/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 8/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 8/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 11/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 11/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 14/I - SU-76 self-propelled artillery
2. 14/II - 122mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
2. 14/III - 76.2mm M1942 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
2. 17 - BA-64 recon
2. 20 - SU-85 self-propelled anti-tank
2. 23 - 37mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed anti-air
2. 26 - Soviet Eng 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3rd Guards Mechanized Corps:
3. 3/I - T-34/43 tank
3. 3/II - T-34/43 tank
3. 6/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 6/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 9/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 9/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 12/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 12/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 15/I - SU-76 self-propelled artillery
3. 15/II - 122mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
3. 15/III - 76.2mm M1942 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
3. 18 - BA-64 recon
3. 21 - SU-85 self-propelled anti-tank
3. 24 - 37mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed anti-air
3. 27 - Soviet Eng 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
Attached supporting units [Otdeljat]:
O. 28 - IS-1 heavy tank
O. 29 - SU-152 heavy tank destroyer
O. 30 - SU-122 assault gun
O. 31/I - BM-13 Katyusha self-propelled artillery
O. 31/II - BM-13 Katyusha self-propelled artillery
O. 32/I - 152mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed heavy artillery
O. 32/II - 152mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed heavy artillery
O. 33/I - M16 MGMC self-propelled anti-air
O. 33/II - 85mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed heavy anti-air
O. 33/III - 85mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed heavy anti-air
O. 34 - Para 43 paratrooper
O. 35 - Soviet BridgEng (w/ Truck) bridge engineer
O. 36 - Soviet cavalry
Aircraft [Voyenno-Vozdushnye Sily]:
V. 37/I - Yakovlev Yak-9D fighter
V. 37/II - Yakovlev Yak-9D fighter
V. 37/III - Lavochkin La-5 fighter
V. 37/IV - Lavochkin La-5 fighter
V. 37/V - Lavochkin La-5 fighter
V. 38/I - Il-2 Shturmovik tactical bomber
V. 38/II - Il-2 Shturmovik tactical bomber
V. 38/III - Petlyakov Pe-2 tactical bomber
V. 38/IV - Petlyakov Pe-2 tactical bomber
V. 39/I - Ilyushin Il-4 strategic bomber
V. 39/II - Ilyushin Il-4 strategic bomber
V. 39/III - Ilyushin Il-4 strategic bomber
GERMAN FORCES
1st Panzer Division:
1. 1/I - Panther A tank
1. 1/II - Panzer IVH tank
1. 4/I - Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
1. 4/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
1. 7/I - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
1. 7/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
1. 10/I - Wespe self-propelled artillery
1. 10/II - 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
1. 10/III - 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
1. 13 - SdKfz 232 8Rad recon armoured car
1. 16 - StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
1. 19 - 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed anti-air
1. 22 - Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track) engineers
2nd Panzer Division:
2. 2/I - Panther A tank
2. 2/II - Panzer IVH tank
2. 5/I - Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
2. 5/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
2. 8/I - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
2. 8/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
2. 11/I - Wespe self-propelled artillery
2. 11/II - 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
2. 11/III - 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
2. 14 - SdKfz 232 8Rad recon armoured car
2. 17 - StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
2. 20 - 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed anti-air
2. 23 - Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track) engineers
3rd Panzer Division:
3. 3/I - Panther A tank
3. 3/II - Panzer IVH tank
3. 6/I - Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
3. 6/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
3. 9/I - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
3. 9/II - Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
3. 12/I - Wespe self-propelled artillery
3. 12/II - 15 cm sFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
3. 12/III - 10.5 cm leFH 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed artillery
3. 15 - SdKfz 232 8Rad recon armoured car
3. 18 - StuG IIIG self-propelled anti-tank
3. 21 - 3.7 cm FlaK 37 (w/ Opel Blitz truck) towed anti-air
3. 24 - Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track) engineers
Attached supporting units [Unterstellt]:
U. 25 - Tiger I heavy tank
U. 26 - Panzerwerfer 42 self-propelled artillery
U. 27/I - 21 cm Mrs 18 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy artillery
U. 27/II - 21 cm Mrs 18 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy artillery
U. 28/I - SdKfz 7/1 self-propelled anti-air
U. 28/II - 8.8 cm FlaK 36 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy anti-air
U. 28/III - 8.8 cm FlaK 36 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track) towed heavy anti-air
U. 29 - Fallschirmjager 43 paratrooper
U. 30 - Bruckenpioniere (w/ Opel Blitz truck) bridge engineer
U. 31 - Kradschutzen motorcycle
Aircraft [Luftwaffe]:
L. 32/I - Focke-Wulf Fw 190A fighter
L. 32/II - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter
L. 32/III - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter
L. 32/IV - Messerchmitt Bf 109G fighter
L. 33/I - Focke-Wulf Fw 190F tactical bomber
L. 33/II - Messerchmitt Bf 110G tactical bomber
L. 33/III - Junkers Ju 87D tactical bomber
L. 34/I - Junkers Ju 88A strategic bomber
L. 34/II - Junkers Ju 88A strategic bomber
L. 34/III - Heinkel He 111H2 strategic bomber
----------------------------------------
SOVIET FORCES
1st Guards Mechanized Corps:
1. 1/I - T-34/43 tank
1. 1/II - T-34/43 tank
1. 4/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 4/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 7/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 7/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 10/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 10/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
1. 13/I - SU-76 self-propelled artillery
1. 13/II - 122mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
1. 13/III - 76.2mm M1942 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
1. 16 - BA-64 recon
1. 19 - SU-85 self-propelled anti-tank
1. 22 - 37mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed anti-air
1. 25 - Soviet Eng 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2nd Guards Mechanized Corps:
2. 2/I - T-34/43 tank
2. 2/II - T-34/43 tank
2. 5/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 5/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 8/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 8/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 11/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 11/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
2. 14/I - SU-76 self-propelled artillery
2. 14/II - 122mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
2. 14/III - 76.2mm M1942 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
2. 17 - BA-64 recon
2. 20 - SU-85 self-propelled anti-tank
2. 23 - 37mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed anti-air
2. 26 - Soviet Eng 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3rd Guards Mechanized Corps:
3. 3/I - T-34/43 tank
3. 3/II - T-34/43 tank
3. 6/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 6/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 9/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 9/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 12/I - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 12/II - Guards 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
3. 15/I - SU-76 self-propelled artillery
3. 15/II - 122mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
3. 15/III - 76.2mm M1942 (w/ Truck) towed artillery
3. 18 - BA-64 recon
3. 21 - SU-85 self-propelled anti-tank
3. 24 - 37mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed anti-air
3. 27 - Soviet Eng 43 infantry (w/ Truck)
Attached supporting units [Otdeljat]:
O. 28 - IS-1 heavy tank
O. 29 - SU-152 heavy tank destroyer
O. 30 - SU-122 assault gun
O. 31/I - BM-13 Katyusha self-propelled artillery
O. 31/II - BM-13 Katyusha self-propelled artillery
O. 32/I - 152mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed heavy artillery
O. 32/II - 152mm M1938 (w/ Truck) towed heavy artillery
O. 33/I - M16 MGMC self-propelled anti-air
O. 33/II - 85mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed heavy anti-air
O. 33/III - 85mm M1939 (w/ Truck) towed heavy anti-air
O. 34 - Para 43 paratrooper
O. 35 - Soviet BridgEng (w/ Truck) bridge engineer
O. 36 - Soviet cavalry
Aircraft [Voyenno-Vozdushnye Sily]:
V. 37/I - Yakovlev Yak-9D fighter
V. 37/II - Yakovlev Yak-9D fighter
V. 37/III - Lavochkin La-5 fighter
V. 37/IV - Lavochkin La-5 fighter
V. 37/V - Lavochkin La-5 fighter
V. 38/I - Il-2 Shturmovik tactical bomber
V. 38/II - Il-2 Shturmovik tactical bomber
V. 38/III - Petlyakov Pe-2 tactical bomber
V. 38/IV - Petlyakov Pe-2 tactical bomber
V. 39/I - Ilyushin Il-4 strategic bomber
V. 39/II - Ilyushin Il-4 strategic bomber
V. 39/III - Ilyushin Il-4 strategic bomber
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the_iron_duke
- Captain - Bf 110D

- Posts: 862
- Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:45 pm
Re: Am creating a historical MP scenario, East Front c. Oct
Here is an updated version of the formulaic deployment layout:


