Am creating new balanced MP scenarios

[the_iron_duke]

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EDIT:This thread was started for a Germany vs U.S.S.R., 1943 multiplayer scenario I wanted to make. It has since expanded to cover all the multiplayer scenarios I am working on.

It contains my work-in-progress and related ongoing discussions about building the scenarios and refining the historical force compositions. I am currently still fine-tuning the scenarios and when I feel they are ready for general release, I shall announce them in the appropriate thread.
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I've decided to try and create an Eastern Front multiplayer scenario set in around October 1943. I want to try and make it historically accurate with regards to army organisation and unit balance.

There is more available information on German army organisation and I feel that I have represented them pretty well historically. There is less available information on the Soviet forces so if anyone has any input to give then that would be appreciated.

The two army compositions might become a template that I could export to other maps for similar multiplayer games.

The German forces

The Germans are to represent a panzerkorps of two panzer divisions with some additional attached units.

Panzer divisions of the time were divided into one armoured regiment and two infantry regiments each divided into two battalions, along with supporting divisional units.

Each of the two panzer divisions in the game will constitute the following:

1 Panzer IVH
1 Panther A

1 Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
3 Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

2 Towed artillery (w/ Opel Blitz truck) - 15 cm sFH 18
1 Self-propelled artillery - Wespe

1 Recon - SdKfz 232 8Rad
1 Anti-Tank - StuG IIIG
1 Anti-Air - 8.8 cm FlaK 36 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track)
1 Pioneer - Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)

This translates to 4250 points for one German panzer division.

There are various attached supporting units which will be added, although their precise make-up will probably be ascertained when I try and balance out the points between the two opposing armies. Possible additions include:

Mountain troop - Gebirgsjager
Paratrooper - Fallschirmjager
Bridge pioneers - Bruckenpioniere (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

1 independent Heavy-tank - Tiger I
1 corps-level heavy artillery - 21 cm Mrs 18 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)
1 independent Nebelwerfer artillery - Nblwf units (w/ Opel Blitz truck) or Panzerwerfer 42

Perhaps some SE units

I haven't decided how many aircraft to go for yet - any suggestions? I was thinking perhaps:

2 fighter
1 or 2 tactical bombers
1 strategic bomber

The Soviet forces

This is where things are a bit more shaky in terms of historical organisation as I can find less detailed and corroborating information on the interweb, and organisation seems to vary at different times in the war.

I want to go for two Soviet mechanized corps, along with additional attached units. From what I understand, mechanized corps were organised a bit differently, into brigades, and were smaller than a panzerkorps. This is what I have gathered from web research as to how they were structured:

3 motorized infantry brigades each containing 3 infantry battalions
1 Armoured brigade containing 3 tank battalions

In-game, I have depicted a Soviet mechanized corps as:

2 T-34/43
1 KV-1C

9 Regular 43 infantry (w/ Truck)

1 Soviet Eng 43 infantry(w/ M3 Halftrack)

1 Recon - BA-64

3 122mm M1938 artillery
1 85mm M1939 anti-air

1 SU-76 self-propelled artillery
1 SU-85 anti-tank

This equals 5102 points for one Soviet mechanized corps.

I'm not entirely sure if artillery, anti-air, and anti-tank were integrated within the organisation of a mechanized corps or whether they were attached as needed as I've read different things. I've put them within the corps, one artillery per infantry brigade and one each of anti-air, self-propelled artillery.

The artillery and anti-air units I've used also might be slightly more powerful than what I've read (having read 76.2mm M1939 and 37mm M1939 respectively), but they are still less good than those of the German side.

I've also read somewhere else that the infantry brigades in a mechanized corps also had tank regiments, which would greatly increase the number of tanks, but I think I'll ignore this as I'm not certain about it and I think it would destabilise the tank balance between the armies in the game.

So, attached support regiments, brigades and battalions of the Soviets could include:

Heavy tank - IS-1
Tank destroyers: SU-152
Artillery: SU-122, BM-13 Katyusha

Soviet Para 43
Soviet Mnt 43

Aircraft for the Soviets will I think be similar to the Germans.

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This will be the first scenario I have created so any advice or tips are appreciated.

[Carius]

Are you making a historical scenario or an what if scenario?

The major Russian reorganization happened in August of 1941( I could be wrong in date).

Russian Korps mostly contained divisions with independent brigades added to bluster strength.

[the_iron_duke]

The map will be unhistorical - something balanced and vaguely symmetrical with hopefully no advantages for either side.

[the_iron_duke]

Does anyone know where to put a scenario to play it? The manual says to put it in the following folder: My Documents\My Games\Panzer Corps\Scenario

There isn't a 'Scenario' folder in that directory so I created one and put the PZLOC/PZSCN files in it but it's not showing up when I try and select a custom scenario from the in-game menu.

Thanks.

EDIT: I've solved this myself - the scenario needed a name in the Scenario Parameters section in the editor.

[the_iron_duke]

I think I may have settled upon an order of battle.

German forces

Panzer Division 1:

1 Panzer IVH tank
1 Panther A tank

1 Panzergrenadier 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)
3 Wehrmacht Infantry 43 (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

2 Towed artillery (w/ Opel Blitz truck) - 15 cm sFH 18
1 Self-propelled artillery - Hummel

1 Recon - SdKfz 232 8Rad
1 Anti-Tank - StuG IIIG
1 Anti-Air - 8.8 cm FlaK 36 (w/ SdKfz 7 half-track)
1 Pioneer - Pioniere 43 (w/ SdKfz 251/1 half-track)

Panzer Division 2: (Same as Panzer Division 1)

Attached supporting units:

1 Mountain troop - Gebirgsjager 43
1 Paratrooper - Fallschirmjager 43
1 Bridge pioneer - Bruckenpioniere (w/ Opel Blitz truck)

1 independent Heavy-tank - Tiger I
1 corps-level heavy artillery - 21 cm Mrs 18 (w/ SdKfz 7)
1 independent Nebelwerfer artillery - Panzerwerfer 42

Aircraft:

1 Messerschmitt Bf 109G fighter
1 Focke-Wulf Fw 190A fighter

1 Messerschmitt Bf 110G tactical bomber
1 Junkers Ju 87G tactical bomber

1 Heinkel He 111H2 strategic bomber

This gives the German army 37 units at a cost of 12,945 points.

Soviet forces

Mechanized Corps 1:

2 T-34/43 tanks
1 KV-1C tank

9 Regular 43 infantry (w/ Truck)

1 Soviet Eng 43 infantry (w/ M3 Halftrack)

1 BA-64 recon

3 122mm M1938 artillery (w/ Truck)
1 85mm M1939 anti-air (w/ Truck)

1 SU-76 self-propelled artillery
1 SU-85 self-propelled anti-tank

Mechanized Corps 2: (Same as Mechanized Corps 1)

Attached supporting units:

1 IS-1 heavy tank

1 BM-13 Katyusha

1 Soviet BridgEng (w/ Truck)

Aircraft:

1 Lavochkin La-5 fighter
1 Yakovlev Yak-9D fighter

1 Petlyakov Pe-2 tactical bomber
1 Il-2 Shturmovik tactical bomber

1 Ilyushin Il-4 strategic bomber

This gives the Soviet army 48 units at a cost of 13,024 points.

This is a breakdown of how the two armies compare in numerical terms by unit category (Germans/Soviets):

Tanks: 5/7
Tank destroyers: 2/2
Infantry: 13/21
Artillery: 8/9
Anti-air: 2/2
Recon: 2/2
Aircraft: 5/5
TOTAL: 37/48

EDIT: I've added a bridge pioneer to each army and amended the details accordingly.

[the_iron_duke]

Does anyone know what the map size can go up to? Is there a point where the map gets too big and the game will start to crash/seriously lag? I was perhaps thinking of a 50x50 map.

[Carius]

I have a 489x349 sized map that I am working on (off and on). I am not really going to make it that big once I am finished but the size is a place holder for the pad image that I am using. The larger the map the longer it can take to load in game. I load it up to check to see how I am doing.

[the_iron_duke]

Hopefully the map size should be okay then. Since the scenario is designed for multiplayer, computer AI processing time won't be an issue.

I've been thinking about how I might go about making the map. I think I'll sketch out in Paint one half of the map and then copy it and rotate it 180 degrees and place the rotated half into the empty half of the map. This will create a pad image that I can use to create a map that will be balanced and equal for both army sides. There will be a little variation when I fill in the map to make it more interesting but the aim is to ensure neither side has any inherent terrain advantage.

The armies will be deployed right up against the opposing map edges with one panzer division/mechanized corps in the upper half of the map and the other in the lower half. Attached units and aircraft will be deployed in the middle of the map edge between the divisions/mechanized corps so they can be used to augment either wing as so desired.

I've also added an attached bridge engineer to both armies. The armies are pretty equal in terms of points so hopefully both sides should have a fair chance of victory (if the points modelling is accurate).

If anyone else wants to export the order of battle for their own map then they are welcome to.

[the_iron_duke]

I was thinking a cool mod or tool for creating balanced maps for "skirmish" style multiplayer games would be to have a facility to create half a map and then have it reproduced in mirror-image on an x or y axis (reverse or inverse) or in rotation (inverse and reverse) and doubling it to fill the map. That way, in terms of terrain, neither side would have any advantage.

[the_iron_duke]

I'm thinking of how best to structure the game regarding victory conditions for a "skirmish" style game such as this.

As I understand it, these would be the options:

1) By the overall number of flags under control.
2) By the number of flags in primary/second objectives/zones under control.
3) By the number of units.
4) By the amount of prestige. Does this last one include the prestige/cost of existing units or just prestige that is "in the bank"?

I'm thinking option 1 or 2 would be best. For example, controlling 90% of the overall flags or 100% of the primary objectives. Any thoughts, especially among those who are experienced scenario creators?

Also, is there prestige gained for capturing enemy flags? If so, is this customizable? Also, if there is prestige for capturing, does this happen every time a hex is captured or recaptured or is it just one-off the first time a hex is captured?

Is there prestige gained per turn for holding flags or primary objectives?

[ThvN]

I'm thinking of how best to structure the game regarding victory conditions for a "skirmish" style game such as this.

As I understand it, these would be the options:

1) By the overall number of flags under control.
2) By the number of flags in primary/second objectives/zones under control.
3) By the number of units.
4) By the amount of prestige. Does this last one include the prestige/cost of existing units or just prestige that is "in the bank"?

I'm thinking option 1 or 2 would be best. For example, controlling 90% of the overall flags or 100% of the primary objectives. Any thoughts, especially among those who are experienced scenario creators?

Hello the_iron_duke, I'm not a scenario creator but I've helped out during betas etc. to check scenario victory conditions and triggers, so I might be able to give some answers. As for 4), I believe it's the prestige in the bank that is used. But these are not all the options for awarding victories. The number and type of victory conditions can be made bigger by using triggers and combinations of conditions. You can open some existing scenarios in the editor to see how some are set up.

For example, check the 'Operation Huntress' MP map. You can create 'zones' on the map, and make victory conditions involving these. Then script a trigger that involves a player having certain units (specific ones or not, it's all possible) in that zone. This can simulate retreats, breakthroughs, or escort missions (when a specific unit has to reach it, like in this scenario). There are some very creative victory conditions in some scenarios, and they can be used for MP as well.

Basically, conditions for triggers come in four types: time condition, map condition, tag condition, random condition. And these can be combined as well, for example: after a certain time (turns) a 'tag' gets created, which can cause a victory if a certain unit (map condition) is inside a certain zone when the tag is active. Some of these can be randomized as well, but I haven't looked very hard into that. But it is possible to create different, randomized victory conditons which can be related to the players through in-game messages.

Also, is there prestige gained for capturing enemy flags? If so, is this customizable? Also, if there is prestige for capturing, does this happen every time a hex is captured or recaptured or is it just one-off the first time a hex is captured?

Yes, but it can only be adjusted in the gamerules.pzdat file (50pr for a normal flag, 100pr for a Victory Hex). And a player can only get the reward the first time it changes into your flag. So if you start out with a flag under your control (red), and the opponent occupies it, he will get 50pr. If you take it back, you will get 50pr. But only the first time a player changes the flag into his own. This is also a nice exploit in single play, letting the AI take a flag you own when the scenario starts and then re-occupy it for a little extra prestige.

But you can add a 'map condition' trigger that pays out (or subtracts) when a certain zone is occupied, and have it trigger only once or every time.

Is there prestige gained per turn for holding flags or primary objectives?

No, but I think it can be made to work by giving the hex a zone number and scripting a trigger to add prestige every turn (it might require a unit being present in the hex, though)

About your earlier Red Army TO&E question, I can dig up some info on compostion of common unit types.

The air units can be tricky, but for a typical 1943 Eastern Front scenario 'Luftflotte 6' with some additional info could serve as inspiration. Your current suggestion looks OK, maybe another strategic bomber, as these usually outnumbered the fighters. Stukas were quickly going out of fashion in 1943, and were mostly used for low-level attacks close to the frontline, so maybe a Stuka and a Bf 110 as tactical bombers? Fighter could be Bf 109 G and FW 190.

The Soviets used Air Divisions, with Fighter (La-5, Yak-1, Yak-7, Hurricane, P-40), Bomber (Pe-2) and Assault (Il-2) formations. Typical for 1943 could be the 2nd Air Army ( see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Air_Army) and its formations. An Air Army had several Air Corps (Fighter, Bomber or Assault) which was divided in two or three Air Divisions, which usually had three Air Regiments each.

[the_iron_duke]

Thanks ThvN for the information about victory conditions and prestige. I'm going to go for victory being acheived when around 90% of the flags are under one's control.

I'm happy with the aircraft balance - 2 fighters, 2 tactical bombers and 1 strategic bomber for each side - and as they are all different types of aircraft with differing strengths and weaknesses they function as a good tactical tool-kit. The German aircraft are as you suggested: a Stuka and a Bf 110 as tactical bombers and Bf 109 G and FW 190 fighters, with the addition of a Heinkel strategic bomber.

I've almost completed the 50x50 map and have deployed the units. I decided to make the map for this the same for each map half so it will be a good skirmish map. I completed one half of the map, screen-captured it and then rotated it 180 degrees and placed it in the blank half of the map as a pad image. I changed the brightness and saturation of the pad image so it's easy to differentiate between the under layer and the hexes that need to be filled in.

The terrain is kind of generic European, like some of the central and East European maps of the Panzer Corps game. There are 30 towns and 8 eight airfields to capture. The size of the map should make it quite a strategic game as there's lots of space for manoeuvring and picking where to fight. It should also hopefully make it quite replayable.

When I post the scenario I will also post a version with the units deployed but on a completely blank map so if anyone else wants to build a map for these armies they can do so more easily.

[the_iron_duke]

The scenario is now ready except for filling in the scenario parameters.

[the_iron_duke]

This is my first scenario and I could do with some assistance and advice from experienced scenario builders for the Scenario parameter settings.

The following details are the bits I'm unsure about:

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Global Parameters:

Turns: 100 - sounds okay?

Days per turn: 0 - leave it as zero for one day a turn?
Turns per day: 1 - leave it at 1?

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Probability of Clouds: ?
Probability of Rain: ?
Probability of Snow: ?

Moisture: ?

What to set all these to? I want the weather to be fairly vanilla, so some rain, some clouds and occasionally some snow. I don't want it to be heavy Russian winter or anything and frozen a lot of the time, despite it being an Eastern Front game.

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Sides:

Initial prestige: ?
Prestige per turn: ?

I imagine with prestige there might be some subjectivity involved but what thoughts do you have?

Max experience 599 - leave this as is?

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Transports:

I've gone for:

4 land
2 air

for both sides. Sounds okay?

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Victory conditions:

Campaign conditions: - leave blank ?

Scenario conditions:

I've got the following.

Axis Victory / 100 / Number of allied flags in all map is equal to 3
Allied Victory / 100 / Number of axis flags in all map is equal to 3

is this complete? I want it so that when the opponent is down to only three flags they lose.

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Thanks in advance. I think this could be a fun scenario and am looking forward to giving it a whirl.

[the_iron_duke]

I've also got a strange foo fighter issue. I've loaded up the scenario in the game to have a look at it.

In the small map at the bottom right hand corner of the screen I have various Soviet unit icons showing around the map when there are no units there. They are showing even when it is the German turn with Fog-of-War on and are out of visible range.

They don't appear on the strategic or tactical map and I can't see any layering in the editor that would cause them to appear. Any ideas?

[the_iron_duke]

Further to this foo fighters issue. I sent a recon to investigate these strange sightings - it's a big map and I have to admit it was a bit of a spooky trip! Anyway, I noticed that when the recon would end on a hex where a foo fighter was appearing a German flag would appear out of nothing on the hex and the "foo fighter" on the mini-map would turn to German grey. It's a case for the X-Files. Or perhaps Panzer Corps Technical Support.

[the_iron_duke]

Can anyone help with my Scenario Parameters stuff and "foo fighters" issue?

I also had another cool idea for skirmish map creation. When drawing a map it would be good if there was an option so one could make it duplicate what one drew either as a mirror image on an x or y axis (reverse/inverse) or both together (reverse and inverse). So on a 30x30 map if one placed a forest at co-ordinates 1,1 it would also place a forest at co-ordinate 1,30 if reflected on an x axis, co-ordinate 30,1 if reflected on a y axis or co-ordinate 30,30 if reversed and inverted. This way, one could easily create great balanced maps for skirmish-style games.

[the_iron_duke]

Here's a picture of the map with units deployed:



Here's a picture of the mini-map with "foo fighters". It's the turn of the Germans, on the left map edge, with Fog-of-War on. There are various mystery yellow-green icons visible on the map:



In game terms, they appear to be blank hexes that can be captured and turned into flag hexes. The ones on the right of the map are Soviet-owned cities and airbases. It is that curious line in the bottom middle that are the "foo fighters".

[the_iron_duke]

I think I've worked out what's going on with the foo fighters, although I'm not sure how to fix it. When drawing the map I think I accidentally drew a line of flags and then tried to erase them by selecting a "blank" underneath the flag list in the place flag terrain pane.

So what is the correct mechanism for erasing a flag once it's been drawn on the map?

[the_iron_duke]

Solved it - a bit slow on applying the logic. I right-clicked on the relevant area of the map while the place map terrain pane was up and when I loaded the game in Panzer Corps the foo fighters were gone. A little more complicated than it could have been as there was no way of seeing the flags in the scenario editor.