Gustav Vasa -- Phase 5: Planning orders

[stockwellpete]

You might have seen a little cluster of challenges from me on the system called things like "Battle of Orebro Castle 1" and "Danes v Swedes". All they are is some quick "knock-ups" of castles and one DAG battle on a 20x20 battlefield. Basically what Pers-Anders and myself are doing is looking at the scale (or size) of the various scenarios that are going to be used in the campaign. There is already an issue of the number of turns and map scale in my game with Chris, although we may still get a result in 15 turns. I think an issue to consider is the actual length of the campaign and how long it might run before players start to tire or lose interest. Given that there are 16 phases and that battles are likely to occur in each phase, I tend to favour shorter battles and sieges so that players do not get bogged down in great long battles. If the battles are kept "short and sweet" then that will help to keep the campaign moving and maintain players' interest levels.

In terms of the size of the battlefields for "meeting engagements" the smallest is 20x20 which is an area of 400 hexes. Certainly 2 armies of 20 units could fit comfortably here although there is limited space for flank attacks. I actually like this size myself although it will not be to everyone's tastes. Then there is 30x20 which is an area of 600 hexes and this solves the issue of space for flank attacks. I quite like this size too. Then there is 30x30 (area of 900 hexes) and 40x30 (area of 1200 hexes) which are just too big in my view for the size of armies in this campaign.

With regards to the castles, we are looking at the possibility of two sizes of castle - large and small - with the larger ones being tougher to capture. Smaller castle scenarios seem to fit OK on a 20x20 map while the larger castles should probably go on a 30x30 map. The maps work better in siege scenarios if they are square and contain enough hexes for the attackers to surround the castle.

All this is quite interesting to me because next year (when we finally have Unity) I want to try and write a campaign for the Hundred Years War.

[cavehobbit]

There is already an issue of the number of turns and map scale in my game with Chris, although we may still get a result in 15 turns. I think an issue to consider is the actual length of the campaign and how long it might run before players start to tire or lose interest. Given that there are 16 phases and that battles are likely to occur in each phase, I tend to favour shorter battles and sieges so that players do not get bogged down in great long battles. If the battles are kept "short and sweet" then that will help to keep the campaign moving and maintain players' interest levels.

To have battles lasting 'only' 15 turns was intentionally to have the campaign running without players start to tire or lose interest (we've seen this in the Battle Academy campaign where these rules are adapted from).

In terms of the size of the battlefields for "meeting engagements" the smallest is 20x20 which is an area of 400 hexes. Certainly 2 armies of 20 units could fit comfortably here although there is limited space for flank attacks. I actually like this size myself although it will not be to everyone's tastes. Then there is 30x20 which is an area of 600 hexes and this solves the issue of space for flank attacks. I quite like this size too. Then there is 30x30 (area of 900 hexes) and 40x30 (area of 1200 hexes) which are just too big in my view for the size of armies in this campaign.

From what I understand of the current battle and from the test Pete and I been done, smaller maps (20x20) seems like a good size. I've also tried to change the size of the deployment zone, but without result. In the castle battles Pete have done the attacker has it's army deployed in three contingents. This is only possible in scenarios without 'Free Deployment'. I don't know if you prefer free or fixed deployment, but for meeting engagements we could use Free Deployment while fixed is used when castles are involved?

With regards to the castles, we are looking at the possibility of two sizes of castle - large and small - with the larger ones being tougher to capture. Smaller castle scenarios seem to fit OK on a 20x20 map while the larger castles should probably go on a 30x30 map. The maps work better in siege scenarios if they are square and contain enough hexes for the attackers to surround the castle.

At least Stockholm and Kalmar should be large castles.

All this is quite interesting to me because next year (when we finally have Unity) I want to try and write a campaign for the Hundred Years War.

Interesting! Looking forward to be able to play such a long (covering 100 years! ) campaign...

[stockwellpete]

This is what 20 unit armies look like on a 20x20 battlefield. Is that enough space or would 30x20 be better?

[batesmotel]

I think I'd prefer to go with 20x30. It will give the defender a bit more choice of where to defend (assuming they decide to take the tactical defensive) and also give the attacker a bit of choice how to maneuver rather than just making a full frontal assault. FoG tends not to reward using two solid lines of troops as well so I suspect armies may well tend to deploy wider than Pete's example with multiple solid lines.

Chris

[batesmotel]

Stockwellpete (Swedish) 22/21
batesmotel (Danish) 16/21

The rebellion in Westra Gotaland has ended and it has returned to peace under Union rule. It was a bloody battle and ended on the attacker's turn 14 so didn't quite go the full turn limit. Looked like it could be a bloody draw but in the end the Swedish right flank collapsed.

Chris

[cavehobbit]

Stockwellpete (Swedish) 22/21
batesmotel (Danish) 16/21

The rebellion in Westra Gotaland has ended and it has returned to peace under Union rule. It was a bloody battle and ended on the attacker's turn 14 so didn't quite go the full turn limit. Looked like it could be a bloody draw but in the end the Swedish right flank collapsed.

Chris

Ok, could any of you take a screenshot of the battlefield so we can see which BG's are eliminated from the campaign. And remember that some of Westra Götaland's BG's survives even if the army was dissolved and these BG's will join the rebellion again if Westra Götaland is controlled by the Swedish.

7.7 Dissolved armies may return the next phase.
7.7.1 The number of units in a dissolved army is halved (rounding up).
Which units in a dissolved army that will not return is randomly decided by
the GM.
7.7.2 The dissolved army is removed from the Strat Map, but will become
available for redeployment on the following phase.
7.7.3 Province armies redeploy in their home provinces. If their home
province is already occupied they will redeploy first when the home
province is unoccupied. If the province has a castle, both the castle and the
province must be occupied for the army not to be able to redeploy.
7.7.4 German mercenaries may redeploy in any of the two Danish home
provinces (Skåne or Bohus).
7.7.5 Lübeck mercenaries redeploy in any province in Swedish control with
either province or castle unoccupied.

[stockwellpete]

Here are two screenshots for a scenario involving a smaller castle. These are on 20x20 maps. Notice that in the first picture there are only 2 gaps in the walls and the defenders have 15 units - the contours are also "steep". This would be the situation if the castle was assaulted directly without any preparatory siege . . .



This second version would apply after one month of siege. The gaps in the walls are increased to 4 and the defenders only have 12 units - the contours are now "gentle".

[stockwellpete]

Screenshot of final positions of my game with batesmotel . . .

[batesmotel]

I basically zoomed the map in as much as I could while still showing all the visible BGs on screen and took the screenshot that way. I also emailed the shot to cavehobbit as a PNG file since I don't think it makes sense to post two screenshots for each battle here.

Chris

[cavehobbit]

EDIT: not sure how helpful that is. I don't know how to focus on a section of the map (or if it is even possible). My survivors were Ture Jonsson unit, 3xCbows, 1x artillery, 2x militia with cbows, 1x soldier, 1x noble, and 1x knight. (10)

For Routed BG's to count as eliminated they need 3 skulls (<25%) or having run away from the battle. So you should have Ture Jönsson, 3xCbows, 1xArty (bonus unit for being defender), 5x Militia w/ Cbows, 2x Soldiers, 1x Noble, 1x Knight and 3x Soliders w/ Cbows.

But as your Army is dissolved half (rounded up) of these BG's will be eliminated (Ture Jönsson and the bonus arty does not count as being part of the army), 15/2 = 8 (7,5). Will make some rolls, soon back with the results.

[cavehobbit]

These units were eliminated when army was dissolved:
3x Cbows, 2x Militia w/ Cbow, 1x Soldier, 1x Noble, 1x Soldier w/ Cbow

[stockwellpete]

I basically zoomed the map in as much as I could while still showing all the visible BGs on screen and took the screenshot that way. I also emailed the shot to cavehobbit as a PNG file since I don't think it makes sense to post two screenshots for each battle here.

Chris

Yes, I have got it now, thanks, Chris.

[stockwellpete]

These units were eliminated when army was dissolved:
3x Cbows, 2x Militia w/ Cbow, 1x Soldier, 1x Noble, 1x Soldier w/ Cbow

So where have they gone then? Ture told them to "bury their weapons for next time!" Je ne comprends pas.

[cavehobbit]

These units were eliminated when army was dissolved:
3x Cbows, 2x Militia w/ Cbow, 1x Soldier, 1x Noble, 1x Soldier w/ Cbow

So where have they gone then? Ture told them to "bury their weapons for next time!" Je ne comprends pas.

In game terms it's a penalty for being dissolved. They were probably captured by the Danish or went home again. Some may have fled to another province still not joined the rebellion. The survivors (including Ture) have fled to the woods or other parts of the province where the Danish don't dare or bother to search for them.

I also noted I made a mistake when I checked which BG's would be eliminated due to army being dissolved. You have 15 other units that didn't took part in the battle, but still belong to the army. They need to be decimated as well. Your starting army had 35 BGs. You lost 4 (1x Knight and 3x Militia w/ Cbow) in the battle, which gives you 31 left. For being dissolved you lose 31/2 = 16 (15,5). I will randomly pick another 8 BG's from the that didn't took part in the battle: 5x Militia, 1x Cbows, 1x Skirmisher w/ Cbow and 1x Light Artillery.

To sum this up, survivors hiding from the Danish and can rejoin the rebellion later:
Ture Jönsson
1x Knight
2x Soldiers
2x Soldiers w/ Cbow
5x Militia
3x Militia w/ Cbow
1x Skirmisher w/ Cbow
1x Skirmisher w/ Firearm

That's still 15 BG's + Ture Jönsson.

Is it still confusing?

[stockwellpete]

Is it still confusing?

No, I just didn't realise that we would lose all these units after the battle. I must be getting old - it's a lot to take in all in one go.

[stockwellpete]

Please can we be "un-dissolved" and retreat into adjacent Nerke? It is a Swedish province despite the Danish intruders in the castle. Why does it have to be empty? Is it still empty if we capture the castle? 7.6.2 and 7.6.3 say a "free neighbouring province"; 7.6.5 says "empty neighbouring province"; and 7.6.6 doesn't really make much sense at all, perhaps there are some words missing? And 4.6.1 allows for mergers of armies. It is all very puzzling.

[hidde]

Hm, can't the beaten army flee to either Wermland or Dalsland?
This rule then would come into effect:
4.7.2 If a Swedish army moves to a province that has not yet joined the
rebellion, there’s a 20 % risk that this province won’t join the rebellion at
all.

[pantherboy]

Please can we be "un-dissolved" and retreat into adjacent Nerke? It is a Swedish province despite the Danish intruders in the castle. Why does it have to be empty? Is it still empty if we capture the castle? 7.6.2 and 7.6.3 say a "free neighbouring province"; 7.6.5 says "empty neighbouring province"; and 7.6.6 doesn't really make much sense at all, perhaps there are some words missing? And 4.6.1 allows for mergers of armies. It is all very puzzling.

For me the rules are quite clear though editing would be nice. 7.6.2 and 7.6.3 are about where possible retreats may occur (into a province that is empty). 7.6.5 says "empty neighbouring province already controlled by the loser's side" with the intent of setting a further restriction on how to define a legal rout path. It is obvious that 7.6.6 is meant to read "for that army to withdraw into then the loser's army is dissolved". 4.6.1 is simply about merging. As a result you have the following options:

1. Capture Orebro castle this turn and then retreat to Nerke while your other army occupies the castle. Best solution.
2. Retreat to Nerke while the castle is still in Danish hands and eliminate all the units beyond 35 that exist when the two occupying armies merge.
3. Dissolve and lose half the army and hope to free Westra Gotaland at some later stage.

[pantherboy]

Hm, can't the beaten army flee to either Wermland or Dalsland?
This rule then would come into effect:
4.7.2 If a Swedish army moves to a province that has not yet joined the
rebellion, there’s a 20 % risk that this province won’t join the rebellion at
all.

No because they are not controlled by the Swedes. If we are allowed to withdraw into uncontrolled provinces then we will be able to retreat forward which would allow really gamey situations where I purposely lose to move behind enemy lines or for a strategic advantage.

[pantherboy]

My suggestion for the neutral provinces would be to make it optional whether they join the rebellion. If the Swedes are confident or have paths of retreat then they would be smart to muster their forces otherwise leave them dormant and wait till an occupying force can liberate it or another enemy force moves through triggering the condition.