Anti tank tactic

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foxtrot
Lance Corporal - Panzer IA
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Anti tank tactic

Post by foxtrot »

Hi all, my first post so go easy :)
I've noticed in multiplayer games that some opponents assault your armour with trucks and Bren carriers and so on to draw fire (most tanks only manage to get off two shots per move) and then pile in with a tank or two to essentially take free pot shots at you. This seems like a slightly unrealistic tactic and I find it quite annoying (so quit with that ok!). Could something be done about this in a future release. Also could it also be made so that if such a truck is carrying troops then surely they should get fried as well when the truck they're in lights up? Thoughts?
Apologies if this has already been discussed, I couldn't find anything...
pipfromslitherine
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by pipfromslitherine »

It's definitely a gamey tactic, and those using it should be ashamed (well, using trucks anyway, one could argue Bren carriers are valid scouting vehicles). We are looking at giving people more control over reaction fire in BA2, but I imagine only the hardcore players will make use of it.

I think in general it's not an especially useful tactic though - you only get a given number of those units, and you end up stranding your infantry and other non-mobile units.

Cheers

Pip
mlazar
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by mlazar »

Oh, it is a totally useful tactic. If you have excess trucks, you can knock down enemy tanks for free. The allies especially benefit from this. Suicide truck drivers, likely Al Queda in the US in 1943. ;-)
gortwillsaveus
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by gortwillsaveus »

I have used trucks, Bren carriers, suppressed troops,...anything I could get my hands on, and used them to draw fire, so I can roll up on the enemy and take my shots.
Ashamed? Certainly not.

Why? I agree, certainly it's a gamey thing,...but so what,..I could name 10 other similar things that also gamey, but I use them,..and so does every opponent I've played.
Look,..this tactic (as well as the 10+ others) doesn't always end with the results that are hoped for.

I've used the truck tactic, drawn fire,..then rolled up with 2 Panthers,..that all miss,....and then it's my opponent's turn to take advantage of my foolish mistake.
I like to think that the driver jumps out just before the truck explodes in a ball of flames. ;)
Is that really too unreasonable to assume??? I don't think so.

Are you going to tell me that we supposed to play by some "rules of fairness"? The game is just that,...a game,....while also simulating combat.

It's easy for me to say this,..but if it were me in real combat,..and I could "draw the fire" of the enemy to defeat them,...I'd go to any extreme, no matter how ridiculous (or fair) and press on.
gortwillsaveus
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by gortwillsaveus »

I wanted to give one more example. Bear with me. ;)

In the game of Chess,...one might know how to play,...but one might not know all the rules or nuances of play.
For example,..I've played and used en passant. My opponent immediately said,.."that's not a move".
So,...is it fair for me to make a legitimate move that is unknown to my opponent? I say of course it's fair.

The next game we play,..or if he plays someone else.....he'll now know what en passant is,...and he can either use it himself,..or if his opponent uses it,..he now knows that it's a fair move, and he'll be prepared.

In BA,...I make sure that I'm outside of striking distance if my opponent should roll up with a truck.
soldier
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by soldier »

In the game of Chess,...one might know how to play,...but one might not know all the rules or nuances of play.
For example,..I've played and used en passant. My opponent immediately said,.."that's not a move".
So,...is it fair for me to make a legitimate move that is unknown to my opponent? I say of course it's fair.
Well I wouldn't spring en passant on a chess newbie, better to mention it prior to playing.

As for milking shots
1 - Tanks would almost never blaze away all their primary ammo at transports when more dangerous opponents were around and tended to be better served by firing secondary weapons at such targets (who would very easy to surpress).
2 - The opposing general would rarely order his valuable transports to drive head on at enemy tanks and the crews would find any excuse to disobey such orders if he did.

...Unless of course both sides had gone crazy and were somehow able to achieve victory by diving into their graves the fastest

Its a bit tricky with turned based games like this. Other games have tried to get around the issue by giving bonus shots or offering control over response fire but both solutions introduced other problems. Personally i think many MP scenarios in the original BA game had to high ratio's of AFV's and APC's to the numbers of infantry and with almost no ATG's at all the opportunity to use the tactic was everywhere without any counterbalance.
Maybe a few small well thought out changes to scenario design, game rules and unit behaviour could make the tactic even less beneficial than it is now or you could go all the way and set ranges and target types etc. I'm not sure how it could be completely eliminated or if it should be.
gortwillsaveus
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by gortwillsaveus »

soldier wrote: Well I wouldn't spring en passant on a chess newbie, better to mention it prior to playing.
Actually, that player wasn't a newbie,...he actually was a really strong player. He just had never learned about that particular move.

Anyway,...I suppose I just don't see how you could ever work around this issue of how transports are used.
Forget transports, what about moving and sacrificing infantry to draw opportunity fire.
What about sending a Heavy tank out to draw opp fire,..what about an "expendable" light tank?,...and the list goes on.
I think the bottom line is that this is simply a game,....as cool as it is,...it can never reproduce real tactics used on the battlefield.

Every turn-based game has its peculiarities. The first one I played Panzer General was the same way,..and so is ever turn-based game since then.

Let me give another scenario,..suppose you roll up with a M5 in a scouting role.
It gets ambushed by an obviously lone enemy Panther. The M5 backs up, and is fired upon again, and let's say it gets fired upon for the 3rd and final opp fire that Panther can take.
So now,..I have an Engineer in a transport, and can roll up to the Panther, drop the Engineers in rear of the Panther.
In real combat, is that fair? In this game? Hard to say, but it is permissible,..and I'll use everything I can to my advantage.

I'm always puzzled by game players that want ultra-realistic, true-to-life, sounds, combat affects, animation, armor strength,....from a software stand-point,..it's impossible.
I don't think you'd have any First Person shooter games if ultra-realism was fun. One shot, one kill. Game over.
tmoj2000
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by tmoj2000 »

Well the "kamikaze" truck tactic is easy to beat... You need to leave extra shots and also have your troops cover each other....

Too often players blame their own mistakes on supposedly gamey moves by the opponent,,, If you send out a panther without cover, its gonna be overrun by a numerically superior opponent..... If you keep your panther covered, all your opponent will get is a lot of dead trucks while your troops gain extra experience
jcb989
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by jcb989 »

I can think of one game mechanics mod to consider, that would be infinite shot availability against any class of unit that cannot damage your said unit.
So, tanks would have infinite shots at parading bren carriers and trucks and non-unibomber infantry, etc. At least that way you would cut down on the casual use of this particular gamey tactic. If the developers wanted.
foxtrot
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by foxtrot »

Hi all, thanks for all the responses. Interesting reading. I can see the merit in all the views expressed here but I have to say I do like the last idea about infinite shots against these kind of units. Arguably most of these could be taken out by the turret mounted .50 cal (or equivalent) so the AT capability should still be intact. Slitherin, what do you reckon?

Thanks again!
oran9eone
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by oran9eone »

I'd have to agree with letting the tactic stand. Infinite .50 for tanks would give them too much power. The better idea is to better conceal your armor or plan your attacks so that you dont end the turn with an exposed tank. I agree with tmoj, gort and others on this one with all due respect. When I first started playing and had my tanks all willy nilly I hated this tactic. Now I dont mind because if I left my tank out without help I consider it gone or I got lucky. In most instances (like Tmoj said) you are giving my troops more experience and health by parading trucks. Most of the time (especially against a quality opponent) this tactic is useless unless you are using it to discover positions so you can arty them.

One last thing....Band of Brothers anyone? Sniper scene...using decoy to distract while another sends bullet through head....im just sayin.
gortwillsaveus
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by gortwillsaveus »

Well it seems that after the upgrade to Husky patch,...that opportunity fire has been, ever so slightly, modified.
I noticed that suppressed units don't draw enemy fire, even if you roll up on them.
This seems also be the case for all other suppressed troops.

Although I can't be sure yet,.....I think I've seen some other anomalies where opportunity fire has been unpredictable.
Any one else notice the change after upgrading to the Husky patch?
pipfromslitherine
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by pipfromslitherine »

There are indeed changes intended to solve these kinds of issues.

Cheers

Pip
gortwillsaveus
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by gortwillsaveus »

pipfromslitherine wrote:There are indeed changes intended to solve these kinds of issues.

Cheers

Pip
So far,...they seem to be good changes.
However,....usually when you try to balance something like this, you throw something else out of whack.
Kind of like trimming a mustache with one eye closed. Pretty soon, you have no mustache.
I'm hoping the changes made,...were with both eyes open. ;)

I did notice once where a tank rolled up next to a building with infantry. Not attack made by infantry.
Perhaps there was a weighing of odds when attacking tank from the front or side.

Also there was this,....I moved an infantry in a building next to an unseen enemy infantry.
I had no shots left and I burned my remaining movement points.
I got attacked by enemy (of course).
This dropped my morale from 125, down to 100.
Now my opponent's turn. He attacks my infantry, which knocks me down to 85 morale, but I do not return fire??
Opponent takes another shot at me which drops me to 75 morale,..and now my infantry takes a shot.

I've noticed subtle things happening like this since the change.
So far,...these have been few and far between,...but wondering if anyone else noticed this type of anomaly after the upgrade.
AndrewGardner
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by AndrewGardner »

The change specifically holds AP reaction shots against suppressed targets when there is a low probability of a kill, taking into account the number of shots remaining.

There has always been an element of randomness to reaction shots after considering a variety of factors reflecting the desire and ability of the unit to react.
gortwillsaveus
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by gortwillsaveus »

AndrewGardner wrote:The change specifically holds AP reaction shots against suppressed targets when there is a low probability of a kill, taking into account the number of shots remaining.

There has always been an element of randomness to reaction shots after considering a variety of factors reflecting the desire and ability of the unit to react.
That makes a lot of sense,.....especially when you factor in the "element of randomness". Not sure how you code that, but good job.
I always love the fact that,....if you take a shot at a Panther from the front with a, let's say Piat,....you have a chance of killing it. A small chance, but there it is all the same.

I have taken that kind of one in million shot and been happily rewarded once or twice. Huge surprise for me, and my opponent!
Ranger
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by Ranger »

My two cents about the substance of many discusions about what is and isn't unrealistic and/or what a soldier would or wouldn't do in war game or in real life.

Using units (infantry/trucks whatever) to draw enemy fire is a realistic tactic.
It's a tactic and strategy that has been used in real world battles and combat for a long time.
Diversionary attacks and feints are larger scale versions of the same tactic of using units to draw fire. A cursory review of military history and military anecdotes bears this out.

In my opinion, whether or not it is a realistic tactic in this, or any other, war game, is like comparing real-life command of military operations, with the completely artificial and unrealistic ability of being able to control, direct, and micromanage the action, inaction, decision, choice of each individual unit in a computer or board war game.

Speaking from personal experience, once initiated, with very few exceptions, military operations, anywhere from the platoon - division level commander's perspective, become "fire and forget" endevours that are dependent on the abilities of subordinates and enemies, for success/outcome etc.. The commander expresses his intent and issues his orders/commands to his subordinates. Once the combat starts, as they say, no Op Order stays intact once the shooting starts. This is why the outcome of real world engagements is so often determined by the level of training, preparation, and abilities of the units and soldiers involved.

To be clear, I'm not saying that once the shooting starts, field commanders stop giving or can't give commands/orders/direction etc to their subordinate units. I'm saying that the granular, micromanagement, and control of units and resources thats possible in war games is not what happens in the real world.

Having said that, it is exactly because of all their limitations, in reproducing real life, tactical level, war and combat that computerized (tactical level) war games are so much fun to play.

Cheers,

Thomas
gortwillsaveus
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by gortwillsaveus »

Well said Thomas (Ranger) ^^^
Especially for your first post here.

See,...and that's why I think,..in a game of this kind,...it can be hard from a developer's standpoint, how this should be handled, should they;
a) Allow the opportunity fire on trucks/infantry/suppressed units that are used for bait
b) Minimize the opportunity fire or disallow altogether

I personally think that if you, as a player use you units as bait,...you deserve to be fired upon.
Those troops will more than likely be destroyed, thus leaving you in a precarious state.
In Desert Rats scenario (multiplayer),...if you loose to many of your troops in this manner,..it's game over.
Same with Desert Fort,....as the Germans,..you can't lose any transports or infantry or it's game over.

Overall,...people will always find fault with software and complain.
To which, a bug is opened,..and to which the developers will defer it stating that it's not a bug,..it's an Enhancement.
But I digress.

I think BA had done a great job in this situation,....this new update is still up for analysis,..but so far seems fair.
While I might disagree about someone rolling all trucks and suppressed units right in front of the enemy without a single shot being taken,..
if it affects both sides,..well then,..it's probably good enough.
jcb989
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by jcb989 »

gortwillsaveus wrote:While I might disagree about someone rolling all trucks and suppressed units right in front of the enemy without a single shot being taken,..
if it affects both sides,..well then,..it's probably good enough.

I think the shot should be taken if those trucks are loaded with another unit... wonder if they thought of that
AndrewGardner
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Re: Anti tank tactic

Post by AndrewGardner »

An unarmoured truck will continue to draw HE reaction fire as before.

Whether a suppressed APC has units loaded in it is not taken into account. The reacting side may save shots for a higher percentage chance against the transport, or against the transported unit if it is unloaded. It is an interesting situation.
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