Assaulting Buildings: When Occupied???

[Blathergut]

So, at the start of the FoGN FAQ 1 Buildings, several questions are posed but the one that came up today never seems to actually be answered in the FAQ:

When "Occupying" a building* you can be shot at by artillery but what can you shoot at? Can a unit "Occupying" a building* be assaulted? If it can't be seen to be shot how can it be assaulted? Also, only one unit is allowed in a building*!

So:

1. Can a unit occupying a building shoot at all (in particular, in defensive fire during an assault upon it)?

2. Can you charge an enemy unit occupying a building?

3. If an occupying unit is forced to retire, does it move a full (whatever the dice may say) outcome move or does it end with rear touching the building? Or does it position outside of the building and then make its outcome move?

4. If I have a victorious unit inside a building vacated by the previously occupying enemy, and my pursuit does not maintain contact with enemy, can I then charge that enemy unit (which is now outside the building) with my unit which is inside and now occupying?

5. Can an occupying unit make an assault out of the building it occupies?

5. Where are occupying units positioned exactly?

6. Why is there an * after building* each time?

[deadtorius]

perhaps there are no answers, at least not ones that mankind was meant to know....

[Blathergut]

My own answers would be:

So, at the start of the FoGN FAQ 1 Buildings, several questions are posed but the one that came up today never seems to actually be answered in the FAQ:

When "Occupying" a building* you can be shot at by artillery but what can you shoot at? Can a unit "Occupying" a building* be assaulted? If it can't be seen to be shot how can it be assaulted? Also, only one unit is allowed in a building*!

So:

1. Can a unit occupying a building shoot at all (in particular, in defensive fire during an assault upon it)?

not in fire phase but yes to defensive fire when assaulted

2. Can you charge an enemy unit occupying a building?

yes

3. If an occupying unit is forced to retire, does it move a full (whatever the dice may say) outcome move or does it end with rear touching the building? Or does it position outside of the building and then make its outcome move?

position it with rear edge touching building opposite the assaulting unit [or perhaps the way the defender originally entered?] and then make the retire move from that point

4. If I have a victorious unit inside a building vacated by the previously occupying enemy, and my pursuit does not maintain contact with enemy, can I then charge that enemy unit (which is now outside the building) with my unit which is inside and now occupying?

1st...no pursuit except to occupy the now vacated building...2nd...yes, you should be able to charge out...what if the enemy is adjacent to the building?...then assault ends fighting at the edge...what if the assault unit is halted?...then it remains occupying but doesn't assault

5. Can an occupying unit make an assault out of the building it occupies?

as above

5. Where are occupying units positioned exactly?

occupying the entire building area...no exact positioning required

6. Why is there an * after building* each time?

[shadowdragon]

My own answers would be:

So, at the start of the FoGN FAQ 1 Buildings, several questions are posed but the one that came up today never seems to actually be answered in the FAQ:

When "Occupying" a building* you can be shot at by artillery but what can you shoot at? Can a unit "Occupying" a building* be assaulted? If it can't be seen to be shot how can it be assaulted? Also, only one unit is allowed in a building*!

So:

1. Can a unit occupying a building shoot at all (in particular, in defensive fire during an assault upon it)?

not in fire phase but yes to defensive fire when assaulted

2. Can you charge an enemy unit occupying a building?

yes

3. If an occupying unit is forced to retire, does it move a full (whatever the dice may say) outcome move or does it end with rear touching the building? Or does it position outside of the building and then make its outcome move?

position it with rear edge touching building opposite the assaulting unit [or perhaps the way the defender originally entered?] and then make the retire move from that point

4. If I have a victorious unit inside a building vacated by the previously occupying enemy, and my pursuit does not maintain contact with enemy, can I then charge that enemy unit (which is now outside the building) with my unit which is inside and now occupying?

1st...no pursuit except to occupy the now vacated building...2nd...yes, you should be able to charge out...what if the enemy is adjacent to the building?...then assault ends fighting at the edge...what if the assault unit is halted?...then it remains occupying but doesn't assault

5. Can an occupying unit make an assault out of the building it occupies?

as above

5. Where are occupying units positioned exactly?

occupying the entire building area...no exact positioning required

6. Why is there an * after building* each time?

Disagree with your answer to question 1 and 5.

With regards to question 1 re: defensive fire when assaulted. In section 1.4 of the FAQ under the heading of "OCCUPIED BUILDINGS" it reads, "Infantry in Tactical are assaulted using the same rules as for a unit defending a building, except that they do not fire defensively at the units assaulting them.

With regards to question 5 re: assaulting from a building. In section 1.2 of the FAQ under Infantry (in tactical/occupying" heading it reads, "a unit leaving a building voluntarily or through an outcome move will end its move in tactical formation with as much of its read edge touching the building as possible. So, yes, only if the enemy is close enough...such as in a neighbouring building.

[Blathergut]

hmmm..had missed the 1.4 thingie...interesting...

k...another question:

Since a unit needs to pass a CMT to enter a building, and upon successful passing this test can either end occupying or defending, what benefit(s) is/are there for occupying? Won't units always go right to defending?

#5. So a unit occupying a building could assault, but only if the assault leaves its rear side touching the building? How rare will that situation be? What if there is not quite enough room outside for the assaulting unit? 1.2 does say that if a unit is making an outcome move, it is then measured from the point when the unit has its rear edge touching the building. Wouldn't an assault work the same way?

[shadowdragon]

hmmm..had missed the 1.4 thingie...interesting...

k...another question:

Since a unit needs to pass a CMT to enter a building, and upon successful passing this test can either end occupying or defending, what benefit(s) is/are there for occupying? Won't units always go right to defending?

In some cases you have no choice other than "occupying". Limbered artillery and cavalry in column can only "occupy"; and infantry making a pursuit after breaking an opponent in combat "occupy" a building. When there's a choice it depends if you desire to hold the location or have an advance that you want to continue beyond the building. "Defending" units must either pass a CMT to move out of the building or must first change to "occupying" before moving out. "Occupying" units can move out without needing to pass a CMT. Similarly if you want to move to a neighbouring building you need 2 CMT to go from "defending to occupying" or "occupying to defending" but only 1 CMT to go from "occupying" to "occupying" and to go from "defending to defending" isn't allowed.

#5. So a unit occupying a building could assault, but only if the assault leaves its rear side touching the building? How rare will that situation be? What if there is not quite enough room outside for the assaulting unit? 1.2 does say that if a unit is making an outcome move, it is then measured from the point when the unit has its rear edge touching the building. Wouldn't an assault work the same way?

I assume that if the enemy is within 2 base depths of the edge of the building then the unit inside can assault it. Here some clarification would be desired as to whether or not the enemy unit moves back sufficiently to make space or if the assaulting unit is partially in and out of the building. I'm assuming that the intention is that a unit inside the building can assault a unit outside from the building and not that it requires 2 moves (first move to "leave the building" and then assaulting on the following move) as this makes it possible to move troops to within 2 base widths of a building and thereby prevent any troops from exiting but I could be wrong on that.

Outcome moves are rout moves for defeated "defending" units so I see no reason why an assault has to work the same way. I note that the FAQ says the move ends with the rear of the unit touching the building but then goes on to say the outcome move (i.e., rout move for defeated "defenders") is measured from this point. One point that I would like clarified is if an "occupying" unit needs to be broken before retiring from the building. Here are the relevant bits from the FAQ...

Section 1.4 - Occupied Buildings
"Infantry in Tactical are assaulted using the same rules as for a unit defending a building, except that they do not fire defensively at the units assaulting them."
"Units occupying a building use the 'Infantry/Otherwise' result when consulting the outcome table."

Section 1.4 - Defended Buildings
Stuff on how many dice and flank/rear support....then:
"A unit defending a building will not retire from the building unless it is broken."

I can see this interpreted two ways:

1) "Occupying" units use "the same rules as for a unit defending a building"...except for defensive fire, so an occupying unit "will not retire from the building unless it is broken".
2) The statement that "units occupying a building uses the infantry/otherwise result from the outcomes table is an exception to the rule for defenders needed to be broken before retiring.

I'm inclined to go with (2) since this can lead to the typical to and fro fighting we see in villages once an attacker is able to evict a "defender" (i.e., it seems from battle accounts that it's a lot easier for counter attacks to succeed in re-taking a village than it was for the initial attack to take the village).

[deadtorius]

Another question is if only one unit can occupy a building, how many units can assault an occupied building?

In our last game I marched a unit of Austrians in column up a road and into a building, happened to only be 5 1/2 MU away at the time, thus stopping Frenchies from moving in and lowering the local property values. Since the French were so close two units charged the occupied building, then came the confusion.

[terrys]

I can see this interpreted two ways:

1) "Occupying" units use "the same rules as for a unit defending a building"...except for defensive fire, so an occupying unit "will not retire from the building unless it is broken".
2) 2) The statement that "units occupying a building uses the infantry/otherwise result from the outcomes table is an exception to the rule for defenders needed to be broken before retiring.

I'm inclined to go with (2) since this can lead to the typical to and fro fighting we see in villages once an attacker is able to evict a "defender" (i.e., it seems from battle accounts that it's a lot easier for counter attacks to succeed in re-taking a village than it was for the initial attack to take the village).

2 is the correct interpretation.

Another question is if only one unit can occupy a building, how many units can assault an occupied building?

Only one unit may enter the building. It may gain the benefits of flank and rear support in the normal way.

I assume that if the enemy is within 2 base depths of the edge of the building then the unit inside can assault it. Here some clarification would be desired as to whether or not the enemy unit moves back sufficiently to make space or if the assaulting unit is partially in and out of the building. I'm assuming that the intention is that a unit inside the building can assault a unit outside from the building and not that it requires 2 moves (first move to "leave the building" and then assaulting on the following move) as this makes it possible to move troops to within 2 base widths of a building and thereby prevent any troops from exiting but I could be wrong on that.

[terrys]

I can see this interpreted two ways:

1) "Occupying" units use "the same rules as for a unit defending a building"...except for defensive fire, so an occupying unit "will not retire from the building unless it is broken".
2) 2) The statement that "units occupying a building uses the infantry/otherwise result from the outcomes table is an exception to the rule for defenders needed to be broken before retiring.

I'm inclined to go with (2) since this can lead to the typical to and fro fighting we see in villages once an attacker is able to evict a "defender" (i.e., it seems from battle accounts that it's a lot easier for counter attacks to succeed in re-taking a village than it was for the initial attack to take the village).

2 is the correct interpretation.

Another question is if only one unit can occupy a building, how many units can assault an occupied building?

Only one unit may enter the building. It may gain the benefits of flank and rear support in the normal way.

I assume that if the enemy is within 2 base depths of the edge of the building then the unit inside can assault it. Here some clarification would be desired as to whether or not the enemy unit moves back sufficiently to make space or if the assaulting unit is partially in and out of the building. I'm assuming that the intention is that a unit inside the building can assault a unit outside from the building and not that it requires 2 moves (first move to "leave the building" and then assaulting on the following move) as this makes it possible to move troops to within 2 base widths of a building and thereby prevent any troops from exiting but I could be wrong on that.

[Blathergut]

re: occupy or defend

-occupying units can't be fired at except by arty
-occupying units can't be assaulted...enemy have to get adj and pass a cmt and then, only one unit (where when defending, you can be hit by more than one and shot at)

could be times when you'd rather hold it semi-safely

[shadowdragon]

I can see this interpreted two ways:

1) "Occupying" units use "the same rules as for a unit defending a building"...except for defensive fire, so an occupying unit "will not retire from the building unless it is broken".
2) 2) The statement that "units occupying a building uses the infantry/otherwise result from the outcomes table is an exception to the rule for defenders needed to be broken before retiring.

I'm inclined to go with (2) since this can lead to the typical to and fro fighting we see in villages once an attacker is able to evict a "defender" (i.e., it seems from battle accounts that it's a lot easier for counter attacks to succeed in re-taking a village than it was for the initial attack to take the village).

2 is the correct interpretation.

Another question is if only one unit can occupy a building, how many units can assault an occupied building?

Only one unit may enter the building. It may gain the benefits of flank and rear support in the normal way.

I assume that if the enemy is within 2 base depths of the edge of the building then the unit inside can assault it. Here some clarification would be desired as to whether or not the enemy unit moves back sufficiently to make space or if the assaulting unit is partially in and out of the building. I'm assuming that the intention is that a unit inside the building can assault a unit outside from the building and not that it requires 2 moves (first move to "leave the building" and then assaulting on the following move) as this makes it possible to move troops to within 2 base widths of a building and thereby prevent any troops from exiting but I could be wrong on that.

Terry, I think you meant to put extra quotes around the last paragraph which is from my post and put in a reply. Following from another thread which references page 77 that it takes 1 turn to leave a building and that....

"If there is no space to place them, they cannot leave the building in that direction."

Therefore, a unit inside a building cannot assault a unit outside a building without first leaving the building as described on page 77 (i.e., forming up in Tactical formation outside the building).

I assume that since a unit can move directly from one building to another if the 2nd building is within 2 MU that a unit in a building can assault an enemy in a neighbouring building (i.e., within 2 MU) by passing the appropriate number of CMT as described in section 1.2 of the CMT. Is that correct?

[terrys]

Terry, I think you meant to put extra quotes around the last paragraph which is from my post and put in a reply. Following from another thread which references page 77 that it takes 1 turn to leave a building and that....

"If there is no space to place them, they cannot leave the building in that direction."

Therefore, a unit inside a building cannot assault a unit outside a building without first leaving the building as described on page 77 (i.e., forming up in Tactical formation outside the building).

The situation isn't that common, but in theory you could block a unit in a building by standing 55mm away from it (over 2MU - to reduce firing, and less than 2 base depths).
This isn't entirely satisfactory, since the rules are designed to allow you at least try to get to grips with the enemy.
My preference would be to allow a unit 'occupying' a building to assault such an enemy with the intent of driving them further back, and so create the space to leave the building. The attackers would count as still in the bulding and therefore fight as 1 cohesion level lower. If they force the enemy to retire they would then exit the building but may not pursue. However - don't take this as an official rule unless or untril I update the FAQ for buldings.

[Sarmaticus]

The situation isn't that common, but in theory you could block a unit in a building by standing 55mm away from it (over 2MU - to reduce firing, and less than 2 base depths).
This isn't entirely satisfactory, since the rules are designed to allow you at least try to get to grips with the enemy.
My preference would be to allow a unit 'occupying' a building to assault such an enemy with the intent of driving them further back, and so create the space to leave the building. The attackers would count as still in the bulding and therefore fight as 1 cohesion level lower. If they force the enemy to retire they would then exit the building but may not pursue. However - don't take this as an official rule unless or untril I update the FAQ for buldings.

And if the village people fail, do they retire into the building (occupying or defending?) or out the other side of it?

[shadowdragon]

The situation isn't that common, but in theory you could block a unit in a building by standing 55mm away from it (over 2MU - to reduce firing, and less than 2 base depths).
This isn't entirely satisfactory, since the rules are designed to allow you at least try to get to grips with the enemy.
My preference would be to allow a unit 'occupying' a building to assault such an enemy with the intent of driving them further back, and so create the space to leave the building. The attackers would count as still in the bulding and therefore fight as 1 cohesion level lower. If they force the enemy to retire they would then exit the building but may not pursue. However - don't take this as an official rule unless or untril I update the FAQ for buldings.

And if the village people fail, do they retire into the building (occupying or defending?) or out the other side of it?

This has sort of been answered above.... they are not "defending" so they use the "infantry/otherwise" result from the outcomes table.

[Sarmaticus]

So they'll retire as far as the building where they'll halt and be occupying but not defending it. Do the pursuers need to pass a CMT to attack them there?

[Sarmaticus]

So they'll retire as far as the building where they'll halt and be occupying but not defending it. Do the pursuers need to pass a CMT to attack them there?

Sorry to answer myself but on re-reading the proposed amendment, I see that the sallying garrison still count as occupying the building and so, I take it, must retire out of the building if beaten. More dense than usual today

[bahdahbum]

The question also is ; when will we have the amendment ...I am now lost an wonder what is the correct thing to do and next week we play Mockern where you have some buildinds and Terry .....we have IWC2013 end of the month ....I hope we will know what for the tournament latest