Threatened flank

[titanu]

In the picture below the heavy foot (red) are pinning the light horse and cannot get by them. The Chinese crossbowmen to their front have taken a cohesion test and the -1 threatened flank is critical. Is their flank threatened as the red foot cannot charge if the light horse stand (test required)?
It is difficult to see in the pic but if the LH were not in the way a charge streight forwards would hit the Xbowmen's rear.

[kevinj]

I think the relevant rule is on P52 under Declaration of Charges. The second paragraph states that a BG does not count as being charged if it cannot be contacted unless the current situation changes, e.g. if intervening friends evade/rout. So, at the moment, as I see it, the HF cannot count as able to charge the crossbowmen so they don't have a threatened flank.

Weasel Clause -
This opinion is only valid until tomorrow, in order to cover myself in case V2 changes this.

[grahambriggs]

well, the definition of threatened flank is "There are enemy non-skirmishers capable of charging the battle group's flank/rear in their next turn."

I would say the flank is definitely threatened as in the Declaration of Charges section it says: "If a battle group is revealed and can now be contacted due to friends evading or breaking and routing, it becomes a target of the charge". So if the LH evade, the charge will hit the rear. So I would say the HF by definition has to be capable of charging the rear, as there's an obvious circumstance in which they'll smack into it.

I know there are situations where it is less clearcut - e.g. if it were not LH but single rank cavalry (who can simply elect to stand). I count the flank as threatened in those situations too; as maybe I'll choose to stand with the cavalry, maybe I'll cut my losses and evade: the guys who are taking a CHT test don't know what the cavalry are going to do!

[Robert241167]

I agree that it is a threatened flank.

The HF can charge next turn and it is only if the LH pass a test to take the charge that the HF will not contact them.

The key word is "could" and as it stands the HF "could".

Rob

[grahambriggs]

I reckon it serves Dave R right for taking a proper army to Warfare...

[kevinj]

I am not convinced. As things are currently, nobody can declare a charge on the rear of the crossbowmen. I agree that there are circumstances that may result in them getting charged there, but that is not the position at the time the test is taken.

How about a different scenario. Suppoose the intervening BG was fragmented Battle Troops. Would the Crossbowmen count a threatened flank because their friends might rout? What if there was a General able to rally them. What if they were not fragmented but may become so? I think you would agree that any of these possibilities are just speculation and you can only go on what is currently possible.

Obviously, my opinion will reverse if the Crossbowmen belong to Dave R, I don't think he's had his allowance of one correct opinion for this year, but I don't want to take any chances!

[paullongmore]

This one has been discussed to death. In several of the threads Phil provides a suggested rewording for v2.

Not threatened.

As per the previous post you cannot start getting into what ifs.

[philqw78]

There are a lot of possibles that could be used. If there were some cavalry fighting something to the rear of the 'threatened troops', say 10 MU away. At the end of this turn the cavalry's opponent could break, they could then pursue 5 MU then charge the remaining 5 MU in their next turn.

However if they pursued twice they could reach the 'threatened troops' in the same turn, not the next one so couldn't cause a minus.

[Robert241167]

I'm not convinced guys.

As it stands the HF can declare a charge on the rear and something has to happen i.e. LH test to stand, to stop that occuring.

Mentioning a chain of events before a unit can actually put itself in a position on the table to charge is a totally different scenario.

Hopefully we can forget about this with V2....................

Rob

[kevinj]

As it stands the HF can declare a charge on the rear

No, they can't. They can declare a charge on the Light Horse. Anything else is speculative.

[philqw78]

As it stands the HF can declare a charge on the rear

No, they can't. They can declare a charge on the Light Horse. Anything else is speculative.

Kevin is Mr Right.

[titanu]

I reckon it serves Dave R right for taking a proper army to Warfare...

No actually Dave R this time - Chinese did far too well!

[zoltan]

As it stands the HF can declare a charge on the rear

No, they can't. They can declare a charge on the Light Horse. Anything else is speculative.

Well I think strictly speaking the HF 'declare a charge'; they don't 'declare a charge against the LH'. My pedantic point is that having declared a charge, the HF are obligated to contact each and every battle group in the charge path (within the constraints or any declared wheel, stepping forward, and legal contact rules). So in that sense the crossbow are potentially a target of the charge. The key point is whether or not the presence of a conditional factor ('should I stay or should I go') for the LH 'interrupts' the charge target rule.

[philqw78]

So in that sense the crossbow are potentially a target of the charge. The key point is whether or not the presence of a conditional factor ('should I stay or should I go') for the LH 'interrupts' the charge target rule.

So any possible charge is allowable.

So if a batlle line 6 or 7 BG wide had an enemy BG to the flank of one the extremes all units in the battle line are subjext to the minus as a chrge from the flank could hit them all in the next impact phase.

Se the pursuit above for some cavalry 10MU from the flank to make it even more ridiculous.

[petedalby]

Another one that will disappear with V2 - skirmishers in the open will be required to evade from battle troops - and then in my view the -1 would apply.

But as it stands under V1 I don't believe the -1 should apply.

[zoltan]

So let's play v2 since its almost out.

The LH MUST evade so if the HF declare a charge they are entitled (obliged) to hit the rear of the crossbow. Ipso facto the crossbow flank/rear is threatened so they take a minus 1.

[philqw78]

So let's play v2 since its almost out.

The LH MUST evade so if the HF declare a charge they are entitled (obliged) to hit the rear of the crossbow. Ipso facto the crossbow flank/rear is threatened so they take a minus 1.

Have you got V2? Which page is that on? Or indeed how do we now reference the rules since most sets won't have pages.

And anyway the OP was V1

[kevinj]

In the iPad version each page has a 2 part number, the first part being the Chapter (which aren't numbered in the Contents ) and the second being the Page within the Chapter. Hopefully this will be consistent across versions. So, on 9-10 (9 being the Chapter for the Impact Phase) is the section on Attempts to Charge or receive a Charge with Skirmisers, is confirmation that light troops must evade a charge by enemy non-skirmishers unless already in combat or in terrain.

[petedalby]

Hurrah!!

So you will now become the font of all knowledge Kevin - at least until us Luddites get our hands on the hard copy.

[nikgaukroger]

As I managed to time reinterest in wargaming with the release of v2 I thought it would be rude not to download it