FORTRESS EUROPA - Game gamme stopped (RC9)

[Morris]

I think if Allies just concentrate to the east offensive especially in the nothern part , it will be hard for Axis to hold . Although axis has a great dream fleet , but you can not drive it landing on the land !
Anyway , this is a quite interesting AAR which show us the strong Germany Navy which the third Reich had dreamed of !

[supermax]

I think if Allies just concentrate to the east offensive especially in the nothern part , it will be hard for Axis to hold . Although axis has a great dream fleet , but you can not drive it landing on the land !
Anyway , this is a quite interesting AAR which show us the strong Germany Navy which the third Reich had dreamed of !

Yes and no Moriss. Looks can be deceiving. Sure, i dont have numerous troops right now in the north, but Zechi<s got his offensive punch and most of his air cover in the south. By then i shall be fully reorganized.

I can muster forces from other areas of the front as well.

[Morris]

I think if Allies just concentrate to the east offensive especially in the nothern part , it will be hard for Axis to hold . Although axis has a great dream fleet , but you can not drive it landing on the land !
Anyway , this is a quite interesting AAR which show us the strong Germany Navy which the third Reich had dreamed of !

Yes and no Moriss. Looks can be deceiving. Sure, i dont have numerous troops right now in the north, but Zechi<s got his offensive punch and most of his air cover in the south. By then i shall be fully reorganized.

I can muster forces from other areas of the front as well.

I just got the conclusion from the information of your screen shot . If you still have enough reserve forces out of the screen shot , Of course you will win ! To make such a great world war & still have enough reserve force , How powerful are you !

[supermax]

I think if Allies just concentrate to the east offensive especially in the nothern part , it will be hard for Axis to hold . Although axis has a great dream fleet , but you can not drive it landing on the land !
Anyway , this is a quite interesting AAR which show us the strong Germany Navy which the third Reich had dreamed of !

Yes and no Moriss. Looks can be deceiving. Sure, i dont have numerous troops right now in the north, but Zechi<s got his offensive punch and most of his air cover in the south. By then i shall be fully reorganized.

I can muster forces from other areas of the front as well.

I just got the conclusion from the information of your screen shot . If you still have enough reserve forces out of the screen shot , Of course you will win ! To make such a great world war & still have enough reserve force , How powerful are you !

Well, also with 160 pp per turn and still over 75 manpower also gives me the option of buil;ding many quality 5-5 infantry.

No stress, really.

[Morris]

Yes and no Moriss. Looks can be deceiving. Sure, i dont have numerous troops right now in the north, but Zechi<s got his offensive punch and most of his air cover in the south. By then i shall be fully reorganized.

I can muster forces from other areas of the front as well.

I just got the conclusion from the information of your screen shot . If you still have enough reserve forces out of the screen shot , Of course you will win ! To make such a great world war & still have enough reserve force , How powerful are you !

Well, also with 160 pp per turn and still over 75 manpower also gives me the option of buil;ding many quality 5-5 infantry.

No stress, really.

Who can imagine more than 30% of your pp income is from UK ! but INF will cost huge manpower consumption when you use it to do the main defense in the east . It will reduce to 50 manpower within six months . Also the air combat will cost many pps

[supermax]

so, no volonteer to ask Zechi to continue his game?

[supermax]

I just got the conclusion from the information of your screen shot . If you still have enough reserve forces out of the screen shot , Of course you will win ! To make such a great world war & still have enough reserve force , How powerful are you !

Well, also with 160 pp per turn and still over 75 manpower also gives me the option of buil;ding many quality 5-5 infantry.

No stress, really.

Who can imagine more than 30% of your pp income is from UK ! but INF will cost huge manpower consumption when you use it to do the main defense in the east . It will reduce to 50 manpower within six months . Also the air combat will cost many pps

Again, yes and no. Air losses are usualy 1 to 5 the russians being the losing side there. Also if you look closely at the soviet ground forces, they dont have that many, for example they only have 4-5 tanks. This is because theve probably got 15 fighters and 10 bombers, because Zechi needs to cycle them turh turn per turn, since once they atatck, they are usually too depleted to attack a second turn without being repaired.

This drains most of the russian revenue, as shown by the low quanties of troops on the map.

[Morris]

so, no volonteer to ask Zechi to continue his game?

If we do not need to upgrade to RC 9 , I 'd like to try it instead of Zechi .

[supermax]

hehehe i knew you would be up to the challenge Moriss.

Yes, i am upgrading to RC9 as well.

Go ask Zechi...

[supermax]

we cant continue the game with RC9...

Damn

Another stopped game.

When will we have a final version of this anyway???

[Morris]

hehehe i knew you would be up to the challenge Moriss.

Yes, i am upgrading to RC9 as well.

Go ask Zechi...

Whenever you have no other one up to your challenge , I will always be the one .

[supermax]

Well, that was an interesting one...

I will try it again someday!

[Diplomaticus]

As to the game itself, strategically i was in a good position, but a precarious one for a major victory, but i was almost assured of a minor one. I will redo that strategy one day but changes several aspects. First, build a stronger navy with the Italians. Second, conquer more countries in the quiet period before 1942. Last, build more ships with the germans.See ya guys next AAR

Well, now Mr. Super Max has created his next AAR, and I am the victim.

Max and I have emailed back and forth a bit about the possibility of me contributing some comments, and perhaps some screen shots, to supplement his always excellent AAR work. In that spirit, I'll make a few remarks on the above quote from the original "Fortress Europa" in light of his new "Improved" version.

Here he twice specifies the need to have a bigger, stronger navy. However, in our game (so far!) there's little sign of that. Although Max assembled a combined Axis fleet (2 Spanish DD + 3 Italian BB + 1 It. DD + It. subs + 2 German BB + 1 German DD + u-boats) and was very aggressive with it in late 1941--coming all the way to the coasts of the then-neutral USA--the minute the US DoW'ed, the Axis fleet skedaddled and has been pretty much hiding in port since then. Upgrades to his navy have been negligible so far. I have spotted a 2nd Italian DD in Gibraltar's port, but other than that, no sign of this great naval buildup.

So what does this mean? It might mean that he's just not going to invest in a big, high-tech navy at all. (Maybe he's been hoping that I would waste too many resources building up a navy to fight his 'shadow' fleet?) Or is he just biding his time, waiting til his labs kick in? With his current PP production, he can certainly churn out capital ships like crazy, if he chooses. I have to walk a fine line, preparing for either eventuality.

[Diplomaticus]

Oh, and at the risk of stating the obvious: If you respond to my posts here, please do not reveal anything at all from Max's AAR of our ongoing game ("Fortress Europa Improved").

TYIA

[Cybvep]

With all this income, the Axis has plenty of options. If supermax feels that he needs a big navy, he will have one. If he thinks that he can do without it, then he will invest in land and air units instead.

[Diplomaticus]

In a recent email, Max wrote that there's been a lot of talk in the 'Fortress Europa Improved' AAR about "how he did it" and that the word "luck" had come up. Here's my two cents on that point.

No, Max didn't achieve what he's done so far through luck. It was a combination of great strategy, the fact that he'd had a chance to try out a version of it earlier (in this AAR vs Zechi), and excellent tactical choices. While I would rate my play vs. Max so far as competent, I certainly helped him along with a few 'doh!' moments. At the same time, Max's play hasn't been flawless either, and he's struggled with a few setbacks.

At various points Max has paid a pretty high price for his gains. In '39 Poland lasted an extra turn (3), and his losses there were pretty ugly. Then in 1940 because he was trying to take NA and get Spain in the game, he had to leave Paris in French hands for a long, long time (Paris held out through most of 1940). That meant a) he lost the PP's from Paris all that time and b) the French were able to fully repair their escaped Armee de l'air and to do some other repairs (e.g. a BB in a UK port), saving the UK much-needed PP's and manpower. Max's overland slogs after Yugoslavia and especially Greece were slow, rather costly affairs. Because Max was putting so much emphasis on speed and aggression, he made a great many attacks for a long time with unrepaired, low strength units, which translated into higher casualties and less efficient use of oil. To be brief, Max's strategy has not been some miraculous walk-in-the-park.

[Diplomaticus]

In our game it's now September 1942, and so far Max has had things pretty much his own way. This has led me to think about what happens in CEAW when a) there's a successful Sealion and b) no DoW vs Russia until spring 1942.

UK: The loss of Britain means that the UK side is badly, badly crippled. Until the US/USSR join, there's the devastating morale loss. There's also a massive loss of PP income, and manpower is down to a mere trickle. All of this means that Britain can't really do anything but try to hunker down and survive until the USA joins in.

USA: The U.S. enters the war in late 1941 in a pretty weak state. PP/turn is 67 at first. At start units are few and technically behind. And since all these units start in North America, it's going to take a while to get them into action.

USSR: The Soviet Union, left to its own devices until May 1942, has the advantage of super-massive PP reserves--about 2,500 PP--and its manpower is vast. On the down side, at DoW the Russians start scattered all over the map, technically primitive, and hampered by the DoW morale loss. Also, being neutral all that time means somewhat less lab advancement. It takes many turns for the Red Army to get its house in order and ready to take on the Germans.

Put together, this means that it's very, very difficult for the Allies to do much in the way of seizing the initiative under these circumstances. The Western Allies are in terrible shape without the British Isles, and as strong as the Soviets are from being left alone all that time, at first they are vulnerable, and certainly in no shape to fight toe-to-toe with the Germans. We saw in this AAR (The original Max vs. Zechi--Fortress Europa) what happened to Russia when it tried to mix it up with Germany prematurely.

So it should come as no surprise at all to see the Axis in fall 1942 seeming to hold all the cards. But this may be illusory. The price paid for hurting the Western Allies so badly is allowing the Russian Bear to get ridiculously powerful. Max assumes that a combination of defensive terrain and lab tech superiority will allow him to hold off the Russians until it's too late for the Allies to win. I intend to test that hypothesis.

[Cybvep]

Your analysis is more or less correct. The real question is whether you want to or even whether you are able to be active in 1942. The Axis already has the advantage of time, because after 1941 it's the Allies who have to do things quickly, not the Axis. However, I'm not sure whether it's possible to really hurt the Germans in 1942 if the Axis player is as experienced as Supermax is.

[zechi]

Your analysis is more or less correct, but there are things that can be done to counter it.

Firstly, you will have to hold Britain as long as possible, as this will alow you to do other things with the British. If you manage to have enough units in Britain, then you can avoid the morale loss for some time. In my game with Supermax I managed to hold Britain till summer 1941 as I had quite an Army in Scotland. This Army was no match for the Axis, but from southern Britain to Scotland its a long way with GAR in every city and bad weather. In the meantime I did destroy the Regia Marina which tried to attack Malta. I lost a CV doing this, but nevertheless this made the Med a British lake. In your game Supermax is in a much better position as he seems to have captured Britain in Summer 1940 (this is what he claims at least). Of course this should not happen.

Secondly, its not true that the Soviets can't do anything. They will be weak until winter 1942/1943 and you need time to organise, but an offensive in Finland can be possible if done correctly. In my game with Max he even tried to attack with the Finnish initially, which of course was an error as it allowed me to destroy several Finnish units easily as I had placed enough ground units as well as air units in reach. Of course in your game Supermax did not do the same error again (same with the Regia Marina I presume).

Thirdly, from winter 1942/1943 the Soviets can do some damage. Yes, their losses will be high, but this is normal. If you can attack from three sides with guards and with air support you can usually destroy any unit even behind a river. In my game Supermax had very early maxed out Dog Fight, which did made air combat very difficult, but not impossible.

Nevertheless, with the gains of Supermax in your game cour chances to win the game are very slim at best.

[Diplomaticus]

Firstly, you will have to hold Britain as long as possible, as this will alow you to do other things with the British. If you manage to have enough units in Britain, then you can avoid the morale loss for some time. In my game with Supermax I managed to hold Britain till summer 1941 as I had quite an Army in Scotland. This Army was no match for the Axis, but from southern Britain to Scotland its a long way with GAR in every city and bad weather.

...In your game Supermax is in a much better position as he seems to have captured Britain in Summer 1940 (this is what he claims at least). Of course this should not happen.

In our game Max took London in summer 1940 and Liverpool before the bad weather set in, but a large force (mostly garrisons) held out in cities here and there and especially in Scotland. He didn't winkle out the last Scot until about mid-1941. And, unlike in his game vs. you, Zechi, Max never conquered Northern Ireland or Scapa Flow. This was part of the price he paid in order to 'have it all.' So I only suffered the big -30 morale from mid-41 until the US entered the war. As a result, I was able, for example, to make him take French North Africa the hard way, against entrenched, full morale Canadians. That took him a while.

Secondly, its not true that the Soviets can't do anything.

I think you misunderstood my post. I never said the Red Army was 100% powerless in 1942. What I meant was that they start out with a whole series of weaknesses that it takes time to sort out: 10% morale penalty, all at-start units having 1939 tech levels, units scattered all over the USSR, etc. And at the same time they're facing an enemy with superb tech levels, Efficiency approaching 100%, etc., etc. The lesson I tried to learn from reading the original 'Fortress Europa' AAR was about the Red Army over-reaching by sticking their necks out too early. For example, Max made you pay a terrible price for the conquest of Finland. And later, he was able to create lopsided air battle exchanges of something like 4:1 Russian:German casualties. Even with their deep pockets, the Soviets can't sustain those kinds of losses for long.

With my more cautious approach, I have retaken about half of the lost territory so far (early Sept. 1942) and have eliminated a couple of Romanian corps and isolated a couple of German korps. My losses so far have been insignificant, since most of the units he killed were just gar from the borders or the strategic reserve.

My plan is to balance the intense need for speed with a reasonable caution. I intend to hit Max very hard just as soon as I can, but I have no intention of charging in half-cocked. By being a bit cautious now and being careful with my PP's, I will be able to afford a long series of losses that favor the Germans. I fully expect combat exchanges that favor Max by 2:1 or somewhat more as soon as I launch my offensive in a few turns. If I can keep the combat casualties near that level in winter 1942 and throughout 1943, I will be able to keep the Big Red Machine running long term.