How should Vichy France be handled?

[vypuero]

I have actually done a lot of thinking of this myself and worked on some research. It is clear to me that they should be considered the 3 separate entities as described. My idea would be as follows:

Fall of France - Axis decided, form Vichy or not?

If No - Axis gain all of France (and it should have a value) but allies gain Morcocco-Algeria-Tunis & Lebanon-Syria. This would also increase the manpower or force pool of Free French Units, including Naval Units that would join the Free French. Of course, look to balance both options, but favor the historical, being establishment of Vichy.

If Vichy Forms, it remains neutral, a very small amount of Free French are created for the Allies, and this can increase once Morcocco-Algeria-Tunis & Lebanon-Syria are captured, and again when Paris is liberated.

If the Allies take both Morcocco-Algeria-Tunis (1 entity) and Lebanon-Syria, then Vichy mainland france should immediately dissolve and all territory is then ceded to the Axis. Most of the French Fleet is scuttled, but a few ships may escape to the Free French and some few may be captured. It depends on the scale you are using and should have a random factor. If the Allies attack mainland Vichy France (operation Anvil) prior to their securing all of the Vichy colonies, then Vichy France will resist and join the Axis.

The Axis may perhaps have some ability to travel through neutral Vichy territory, but it would be very limited.

Many of the details will depend upon the ultimate structure of your game, but that to me is a very workable system that accurately simulates historical realities while allowing for some differences.

[rtamesis]

If Vichy France forms, how do you entice the British to destroy the French naval force at Mers El K?©bir harbour near Oran in July 1940?

[IainMcNeil]

To avoid wasting a lot of time on a single specific incident we'll probably have to abstract it so that the French fleet gets destroyed if France falls.

[vypuero]

The way it has been done in the game is:

Vichy France becomes Axis, in effect
Syria cedes to UK (with a free unit, I suppose = Free French)
Algeria is Neutral - and any side can make a DoW

It seems to work Ok based on the way the current game is fairly basic.

I might suggest adding a garrison unit for Casablanca though

[James Taylor]

Iain, for the sake of history and in keeping with man's indomitable spirit to not submit to tyrrany, I think a certain % chance that a FF corps should form and some of the French fleet should escape to join the Allies.

Now this shouldn't be a guarantee, but a strong % that at least some naval would resist Vichy, an intermediate % more naval and land forces would form up as Allies, and a small % of a greater naval and land contingent would become FF in control of the UK player. Three variables should be sufficient.

The FF force should be allowed research upgrades as a full Allied partner, just like the rest of the CW.

[IainMcNeil]

We can do things like that but for the sake of game balance having these kind of things decided on a % chance can really throw a game out.

[James Taylor]

Iain, really.....do you think the advent of FF formations made a lot of difference in WW2?

I'm not talking a deployment that would effect game balance so much as giving the UK something to meddle with and the Axis something to think about during that long inactive period from the fall of France to Barbarossa. The interjection of the unknown.

Something like one or possibly two naval units in the first %, a naval and a corps in the second, and in the third, perhaps a commander(DeGaulle), a couple of corps, one motorized or armored, and a couple of naval units, or one naval and one air.

Does that sound like a balance breaker?

What do you think the UK will be doing while Germany runs amock? As i understand it there's not much diplomacy and all that will be left is the Atlantic sub conflict. So what if Germany decides not to pursue the U-boat campaign?

You see us WW2 buffs are pretty knowledgeable about the history, we in essence have brilliant hindsight. The original participants weren't graced with that understanding. How do you propose to simulate that chasm of "not knowing".

[rtamesis]

I don't think that historical accuracy should necessarily be sacrificed in the name of game balance. If you want to give both sides an equal chance of winning in a scenario, then it should be done by adjusting the victory conditions such as the number of cities/resources captured within a set number of game turns when one side has a large advantage in numbers rather than simply eliminating units such as the navy of Vichy France. The Germans clearly wanted those ships, and had they succeeded in acquiring those ships, they would have helped Germany in terms of the battle for the Mediterranean and in Operation Sealion, which is why the British did what they did in Oran and why the French scuttled their ships in Toulon after discovering that the Germans were plotting to seize them. There should be an option to give a small chance for the Germans to succceed in doing so and allow gamers to explore another what-if scenario.

[IainMcNeil]

The problem is that you could apply this logic to practically every event that ocurred during the war and we'd still be making the game in 2020 It's not something we are planning to cover specifically.

[vypuero]

Histporically, the French Navy was pretty much done for once France fell. Only a couple of ships joined either side, and mostly only small ones. So, I think they are being accurate in that regard. I do think that neutral Vichy should have some ships, and that would force any attack against them by the Allies to eliminate some of that opposition.

[syagrius]

Is there a Vichy France? I am playing my first game and it seems that as the Germans I occupy all of France?

[freeboy]

I suggest giving the Germans the options to take All of France... leaving NA and Syria in the Allies hands, OR, setting up a pro axis puppet state .. Vichy, which has two garrisons, one in NA and one in Southern France. Once attacked it is German.