How should Vichy France be handled?

[IainMcNeil]

Another question for you guys. How do you think Vichy France on the mainland , Algeria and Syria should be handled?

Should it produce resources for Germany? Should it have troops? What should happen if it is attacked by US/UK forces? Should it behave as a single entity or not?

[uxbridge]

When it comes to Vichy France, arranging a marriage between reality and game mechanics isn't easy.

Lebanon-Syria was involved in the war without the rest of Vichy joining, so this scenario must be possible. But it's not good having the possibility of attacking that region without the risk of the rest of the Vichy government joining the opposite side. I think, if it is at all plausible game-wise, that the regions should be separate, but with a certain likelihood of joint reaction if attacked.

Thus one region should be France proper, the other Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia, and the third Lebanon-Syria.

When it comes to resources, I think that would depend on the game in general. If the trade Between Germany and Balkans/Scandinavia/Finland/early USSR, etcetera is there, it could be justified to also include reparations paid by the Vichy Regime. But otherwise I think it would just be unnecessary.

Vichy should have troops, at least in regions 2 and 3 above. There should also be the navy, of course.

[SMK-at-work]

Historically Vichy France was treated like a neutral country by the Germans. When spain demanded too high a price for joining hte war the Germans were not too unhapy as they thought that allied attacks on the French fleet in Africa would bring Vichy in on their side. This didn't happen of course, but it illustrates what sort of relationship there was.

Another illustration is the situation of Vichy after Torch - Admiral Darlan maintained the Vichy govt in Nth Africa allied to the Allies - including the worst of it's repressive machinery - until the unification of French territories under the Comit?© fran?§ais de Lib?©ration nationale, when de Gaulle took power and reinstituted democracy.

So we have the situation that Vichy was invaded by the allies in Nth Africa, and then invaded by the Axis in France - they were essentially living on sufferance from the Germans and were disposed of when they no longer served a purpose.

the main reason the Allies invaded Syria was that some Luftwaffe a/c had transited through there to aid the uprising in Iraq - hence highlighting the possibility of Axis operations in the area.

The Americans hated de Gaulle, and much preferred to work with Vichy. Even Churchill was ambivalent about de Gaulle and Britain only dropped ties with Vichy when it became apparent that they would not fight on in any form.

Vichy WAS a neutral independant - although obviously inclined to co-operate with Germany more than the allies and ultimately disposable at no great cost or effort. It's overseas possessions were of very minor importance - and that mainly as bases for Axis diplomacy and espionage.

IMO Vichy should be a neutral in game, with a small amount of resource split betwen Africa and Europe, and a small possiblity of joining the Axis - but if it does so then it shold only be a very minor bonus for them - certainly nothing war winning. When it becomes obvious that Vichy isn't going to join the Axis it should be easily disposed of.

[joe98]

Its a game.

When France falls Vichy France and each of the French colonies become neutral.

To enter any colony you must first declare war on it as though it were a neutral country. At which point its troops and resources become allied to the other side. If the colony falls the resources go to the victor.

There could be a game mechanic that stops a declaration of war on Vichy France till a given date. There would be an exception. If either side declares war on Spain and defeats Spain, the prohibition of declaring war on Vichy France falla away.

This encourages Allied and Axis players to explore the possibility of invading Spain.

[SMK-at-work]

Why should the allies be encouraged to invade Spain??????

One other thing - the Axis might have the option of creating Vichy or not - if they choose not to then France keeps fighting and it's oveseas possessions become allied, but the Axis gets to occupy all of continental France instead of 2/3rds of it.

[IainMcNeil]

Would it be better to treat all Vichy as a single entity, so declaring war on one part meant all 3 areas joined your opponent? Or would it be better to treat them separately so operation torch invading Algeria would not force mainland Vichy to join Germany.

[uxbridge]

To answer this question one feels inclined to ask for some more info concerning the diplomatic/political model. Are neutral states simply dead things, waiting to be either attacked or activated by pre-set scripts? Or do they have some mind of their own that major states can influence?

The answer to how Vichy France should be treated, depends in no small way upon how much one can affect other neutral states.

[IainMcNeil]

At the moment neutral minor states don't do anything until attacked or triggered by the script. We have no plans to complicate things with a diplomacy system at this time

[uxbridge]

So, there's no reason for the Allies to invade Lebanon-Syria, because the Iraqie revolt will never take place? Sad.

Then maybe a simple solution to Torch would be if Vichy North Africa made a turns resistance or so, and , once certain target criteria has been fulfilled by the invading force, Vichy France proper will go to the Axis and Lebanon-Syria to the Allies.

[SMK-at-work]

The Iraqi revolt could easily be a script - that's the sort of thing scripts are for......

Also it could still be a reasonably pro-Axis state in the Mid east and therefore a possible "back door" and therefore worth invading anyway - which is what happened - the LW's use of it to support the Iraqi's was what alerted the Allies to that possibility.

As for Vichy being a single entity or 3 - the historical case is that they were effectively 3 seperate ones in terms of declarations of war - mainland vichy didn't declare war when Lebanon/syria weer invaded or after Torch, so having them a single entity would clearly be wrong.

[joe98]

Why should the allies be encouraged to invade Spain?

Because its on the map.



-

[SMK-at-work]

so are Ireland and Turkey!

Being on the map is a fairly spurious reason to encourage invasion IMO.

[joe98]

so are Ireland and Turkey!

Being on the map is a fairly spurious reason to encourage invasion IMO.

As is Sweden.

Its called "alternatives"

[SMK-at-work]

Alternatives are fine - my beef is with your use of the word "encourage" - why would you "encourage" the allies to invade Spain?

Allowing it is fine, but "encourage" implies that there is a definite advantage to doing so, and I see no reason to put something specific like that in the game.

[redan]

Third Reich had an excellent solution for Spain as I recall-- it was just to darn expensive to attack it and/or make it an ally. In Clash of Steel Spain almost automatically came in on the Axis side. Worst feature of that pretty good game. In Third Reich it was pretty easy for the Soviets to smash Turkey in 2 moves, silly, in fact, not to try. Vichy was resolved by random factors, a die roll I think, in 3d Reich, and various sections of the French colonies could go either way, depending on proximity to enemy forces, when, or if, France fell-- if France fell after the USA became a playa, the colonies almost always stayed with the allies. The turks should be almost impossible to move from neutrality. Mustafa Kamal, Ataturk, has been dead only a short while, his party is very much still in power, and he hated and mistrusted the Germans. The turks are exhausted, having fought a lot from 1918 to the 1930s. They're perfectly aware of their sandwiched position between the Soviets and the Brits. The Allies would NEVER have attacked Spain or Turkey first. Where's the point? Do be careful about Vichy and Spain and Turkey. The problem has sent some pretty good games into Ridiculous Land over the years....

[joe98]

I wasn??™t going to continue with this thread but Redan has made the point.

The Allies have no reason to invade Spain because if Spain remains neutral Gibraltar is secure. The Axis would love Spain to join the war just to threaten Gibraltar.

There is no diplomacy and so Spain will not join the war. So a canny Axis player might invade Spain and secure Gibraltar and most of the Med. And only then face the Russians. It might be that the Axis player could secure enough objectives / victory points that he wins the game without getting anywhere near Moscow, Stalingrad or Leningrad.

And if the Axis secure the Med. Perhaps they want to approach Stalingrad through Turkey??¦??¦??¦

And then there is the Northern Approach. Perhaps an Axis player might like to put only minimal effort into the Med. And take Sweden with a view to defeating Russsia.

Spain, Turkey and Sweden should all be available to invade and there be victory points / objectives for doing so.

As well as barriers. 3R did it very well!

[ancient]

It might be that the Axis player could secure enough objectives / victory points that he wins the game without getting anywhere near Moscow, Stalingrad or Leningrad.

And if the Axis secure the Med. Perhaps they want to approach Stalingrad through Turkey??¦??¦??¦

And then there is the Northern Approach. Perhaps an Axis player might like to put only minimal effort into the Med. And take Sweden with a view to defeating Russsia.

If a given strategy wasn't viable in reality, it shouldn't be in the game either.

[joe98]

If a given strategy wasn't viable in reality, it shouldn't be in the game either.

Yes I agree.

To reduce the costs please paint the UK, Spain, Turkey and Sweden black.

The Greek campaing was a debacle to Greece too can be painted black.

And we can draw a line just to the left of Leningrad and make that the map edge, thereby eliminating Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad.

And lets make sure Italy remains neutral. Paint it black too.

Have a nice weekend !

[ancient]

If a given strategy wasn't viable in reality, it shouldn't be in the game either.

Yes I agree.

To reduce the costs please paint the UK, Spain, Turkey and Sweden black.

The Greek campaing was a debacle to Greece too can be painted black.

And we can draw a line just to the left of Leningrad and make that the map edge, thereby eliminating Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad.

And lets make sure Italy remains neutral. Paint it black too.

Have a nice weekend !

That's not what I meant and you know it.

[IainMcNeil]

We intend to alow anything, but encouarge realistic play by making the unrealistic things more difficult or less rewarding in some way.