Critical about the graphics

Wings · Post by **Wings** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:06 am

You really need to explain this one to me; how is it possible that the same team who created a game like Panzer Corps with such polished graphics, failed to do the same with CTGW?
Now mind you, I'm an experienced graphics designer so I'm likely more critical as the average person, but I think the graphics of the actual terrain and the units (not the interface) looks cluttered and lacks the definition that I've seen in Panzer Corps.

Yes, graphics shouldn't matter....but for me they most certainly do! Why putting 5 guys in smaller hex? The soldiers almost blend in with the background. Why using a square in the bottom corner of a unit, that seems to be white in most cases, why not only show them (or just an outline) when they have a unique status? Why using a bold font for the numbers? Why using all capitals for city names? Why using such a strong texture for the water but also the plain green tiles? Why do the vehicles/planes/ships lack so much definition/contrast/sharpness? I don't like the design for the forest(?) tiles either and the whole color scheme used for the terrain and units makes it all look washed out. And why does the rail road have to be so dark in color? Also that is distracting (compare how well you did this with PC instead)

Sorry if I sound so critical, but I just don't get it that you got it all right with PC, but now you seem to be doing a huge step back. I was just hoping that you would continue to build on the strong graphics foundation of PC, that really stands out from the majority of WWI/II turn based strategy games!

lordzimoa · Post by **lordzimoa** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:24 am

What are you talking about CTGW is not even released yet! You show Alpha stuff from 9 months ago, I can show you much worse PzC first Alpha maps. Don`t jump to conclusions, wait until we are done.

Wings · Post by **Wings** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:34 am

lordzimoa wrote:What are you talking about CTGW is not even released yet! You show Beta stuff, I can show you much worse PzC first maps. The CTGW map is far from finished...

You now sound like you can't stand criticism, especially after adding that exclamation point and the refusal to explain why the graphics in PC are so much better or to discuss anything that I mentioned, heck you even refuse to show something more recent that I could analyze instead. So much for trying to help...sigh

lordzimoa · Post by **lordzimoa** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:44 am

It is not Beta that map is from 9 months ago and Alpha... Beta has not even started yet.

So it is pointless to discuss as we are working on it at the moment. We have not worked on it for a long time, as some important map engine/code features were not incorporated yet into the game, meaning updating the map every time, would mean by default starting all over again and again, so a waist of time. At the moment all engine map features are almost done, and we are working on it.

Discussing art from Alpha so long ago is a waist of time, really feel free to critic anything, but after release or during Beta, not something that is already outdated, that is the point I want to make.

Wings · Post by **Wings** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:51 am

Discussing art from Alpha so long ago is a waist of time, really feel free to critic anything, but after release or during Beta, not something that is already outdated.

Don't start to get critical on me, when I can't possibly know or even assume that Slitherine would upload 9(!) months old alpha(!) images on a page like this: http://www.slitherine.com/games/ctgw_pc and claiming that the game is going to be released on 15/07/2011...seriously!

lordzimoa · Post by **lordzimoa** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:57 am

That is a typo on the website...

The game release date is still to be announced, Beta is still to begin. The game has been delayed by 9 months to first finish Panzer Corps. All in good time, we re-open Beta this week and start the first Beta round pretty soon.

VPaulus · Post by **VPaulus** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:57 pm

This is a different type of game, so this will be reflected also in the graphics.
It seems to have a different kind of scale and I'm not sure if the angle is the same.
But Tim, you'll have to understand that The Lordz with PzC just set a high quality graphic standard, and everything you'll do in the future will end up (and sometimes unfairly) being judge by that standard.
But it's too early to judge anything related with CTGW. Besides from what I've seen through PzC beta a lot of things drastically change, even the graphical ones, through the whole process.
Wings, probably if you'd been in the early beta stages you'd see that they do listen a lot to beta testers.
I'd like that this game would be beta tested in the same way as it was PzC.

Are these units also rendered in 3D like in PzC? If yes could you use them in PzC as well and vice versa?

lordzimoa · Post by **lordzimoa** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:41 pm

But Tim, you'll have to understand that The Lordz with PzC just set a high quality graphic standard, and everything you'll do in the future will end up (and sometimes unfairly) being judge by that standard.

We don`t worry about our standards, 6-7 years back we were doing this kind of stuff on the Rome TW engine, making nice 3D is never an issue. The design dictates the form and the amount of time and resources you want to spent on a project.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW3ZBBBg ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu9LFF8r ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIEv_VHG ... ure=relate

CTGW is getting again a lot of love and attention and we will just as with PzC, probably do a lot of polishing and updating the coming months, while listening and evaluation all feedback. We always do...

VPaulus · Post by **VPaulus** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:02 pm

Besides the 3D rendering effects your videos have a great cinematic quality.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:14 pm

Thanks for the feedback Wings. PzC has been through a lot more iterations than CTGW so we will polish the game up as it approaches completion. There are definitely areas that can be improved and when the beta kicks in - pretty soon - we'd be happy to hear everyones feedback on this.

It would be great if you could sign up for the beta - which has just opened! Then you can be commenting on the latest versions of all the art and UI.

Myrddraal · Post by **Myrddraal** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:08 pm

Thanks for the feedback.

Don't read too much offense in Tim's words - I think you are mis-reading each other. I believe you are giving constructive feedback and Tim is simply trying to reassure you (because you sound quite worried) and remind you that these are WIP graphics.

If you're keen to give more detailed feedback, your contribution on the beta-team would be much appreciated.

VPaulus · Post by **VPaulus** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:28 pm

Personally I do trust in your capabilities. You've done a wonderful job with PzC.
And I'm pretty sure that with CTGW won't be different.

I'm no graphic expert, but have enough sensibility to recognized great artistic skill and intent inside The Lordz.
And I really mean it.

Suprass · Post by **Suprass** » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:48 pm

I hope that graphic stay more like in Commander series then in PzC. If I want to see something diferent I choose PzC... I can't imagine game frome Commander series with graphic same as in PzC. That's my oppinion.
I love this one I could seen until this moment...

Rubinski · Post by **Rubinski** » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:05 am

Just new to the board and site. I do like what I have seen so far. Gentlemen, I would to say thank you for the professional responses to the original poster of this thread.

Look forward to having some fun with this game

Wings · Post by **Wings** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:42 am

VPaulus wrote:This is a different type of game, so this will be reflected also in the graphics.

I'm a part time graphics designer who runs a graphic design site for almost 7 years now with almost 2 million visitors a year, trust me I know that a design should always reflect what you're trying to express, instead of just doing it for the "cool factor", but one should never lose the focus on functionality, whether it's making a game or application easier to use or giving a logo or ad for example the most impact. Functionality is what separates "design" from "art" for a large part. Like I said earlier, I could not have known that that these were early alpha images considering what Slitherine has posted on the web page dedicated to this game.

Suprass wrote:I hope that graphic stay more like in Commander series then in PzC. If I want to see something diferent I choose PzC... I can't imagine game frome Commander series with graphic same as in PzC.

You understood me wrong. I never asked for a similar design, I asked for the same functional quality. Suggesting to make a map less cluttered should not be limited to one game, but all, that's what I was trying to say and to make the games looks similar, most certainly not!

I've read several replies and I now have good hope that this is not going to happen. Great!
Excuse me for the tone of my post, it's just that I get frustrated at times when I want to make this product do well, not for myself, it's just fueled by my love for the product and I know that this might be hard to understand to some of you, but that's really the way it is.

Suprass · Post by **Suprass** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:29 am

[/quote]You understood me wrong. I never asked for a similar design, I asked for the same functional quality. Suggesting to make a map less cluttered should not be limited to one game, but all, that's what I was trying to say and to make the games looks similar, most certainly not!

I'm glad that I understood you wrong

but no problem with that. I can understand that different person have different point of view (I only wanted to wrote my opinion). By the way- any improvements will be good unless they will not change "the game climate". Now it looks very WW I style for me. Together with good music it can create a very good game... (good music I mean theme thet wil be always associate with this title like in CEAW)

VPaulus · Post by **VPaulus** » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:57 am

Wings wrote: I'm a part time graphics designer who runs a graphic design site for almost 7 years now with almost 2 million visitors a year, trust me I know that a design should always reflect what you're trying to express, instead of just doing it for the "cool factor", but one should never lose the focus on functionality, whether it's making a game or application easier to use or giving a logo or ad for example the most impact. Functionality is what separates "design" from "art" for a large part.

I can agree partly with you. The first goal must be functionality. But like you know, it's possible to conciliate the two, and I wonder if that shouldn't be the ultimate goal. In a certain way it's similar to architecture. Ok, not all are illuminated.

Wings · Post by **Wings** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:14 pm

VPaulus wrote:I can agree partly with you. The first goal must be functionality.

Actually that's not what I said, I said that they shouldn't lose focus on functionality. At the same time it should "breath" WW I, only then you have succeed with the graphics design. Basically it's the way they successfully did with Panzer Corps and if the The Lordz Games Studio can continue this trend, then they WILL stand out from the crowd and it WILL have an effect on sales, I'm 100% percent sure of that, unless their games have crappy game play, but I doubt they will.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting here top of the line animations, I don't think they have a high priority at all in this genre, no I'm purely talking about the flat 2D designs.

The thing is, we can all claim that graphics don't matter in games, but the truth of the matter is that it DOES matter to a lot of people. And especially with hex based WWII games that often look plain ugly, you most certainly have that opportunity to grab some market share. It still amazes(!!) me that we're still looking today at the most awful looking hex based WWII games, with graphic designs that go does against any established design rules or guidelines. I seriously can count all the games with a somehow decent graphics design on one hand. You can get away with that maybe for 10 year with these kind of games, but at one point you DO need to make that switch to seriously better graphics, especially in this day and age when you have to compete with increased popularity on tablets/phones/ipod, there is no other way around it if you're eager to be as competitive as possible. I do think that people at Slitherine/Lordz already knew this, I already see an increased trend towards more polish.

Sure, these are small companies and they have little manpower and a small budget, but in my circle of designers I have seen a lot of amateur designers make the most awesome stuff, heck... a 50 year old lady on my forum who was just doing it for fun, became so good after only one year that she was even allowed to design the outside decorations of a medium sized cruise-ship based in Toronto.
With these games however I often get the impression that the graphics are also done by the programmer...it's that bad how they look. All I'm saying is, even with a low budget, there's lot of (cheap) ways to get better quality. What some of these studios seem to fail to understand is that a lot of skilled amateur designers with an urge for professionalism, want to grab any opportunity they can get to increase their portfolio, even if it means for a small compensation. Heck, that's how I started years ago, designing interfaces and logos for some random developer in China.

lordzimoa · Post by **lordzimoa** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:18 pm

We have enough talented artists working with us and with a lot of experience, budget is the real problem, give us enough and we can make AAA class graphics, but it takes a lot of time and is expensive, hence the big developers with big sponsoring publishers will always be on top in the graphical department. We can do it ourselves, but niche games just don`t generate enough revenue to spend it on. But we try and find a balance.

Cheers,

Tim aka LZ

Wings · Post by **Wings** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:20 am

I don't understand why you feel the need to defend again that your studio can make good graphics, when I've complimented the design of Panzer Corps multiple times plus the polish of your products, just check my last post. Dear Tim, just because I was critical about a design of a game that wasn't released yet (and that even turned out to be alpha release screenshots), doesn't mean you have to post a "portfolio" and defend yourself.

Yes, I know you have a limited budget and yes I know you're developing for a niche market and I don't even need you (with all respect) to explain that, only clueless people don't get it.
I wasn't talking about your studio, I was clearly talking about all those studios that DO make ugly designs. I also don't demand AAA-graphics from anyone, there is a reason why I wrote:

"Mind you, I'm not suggesting here top of the line animations, I don't think they have a high priority at all in this genre, no I'm purely talking about the flat 2D designs."

Look below at what I consider ugly (games from 2010/2011) and now look at what your studio with a small budget managed to accomplish. Can you now see where I'm getting at? That YOUR studio proves that it IS possible! You don't need a huge team to get the colors right and avoid ugly color combinations, to remove the clutter, to reduce over the top bevels, to avoid using distracting textures, etc as your team has proven. On top of that, your team even added more than 400(!) units based on highly detailed 3d models! I have given your studio previously multiple compliments, but for some reason you seem to respond as if I'm critical about your team.

I just think you have something good going on in this area (again, look at the screen shots below) and I hope that you see that too. I'm just wishing is that you continue on this path and that other studios hopefully follow your example. Studios need to stop making ugly games, like I said...you can get away with outdated designs for 10 years or more, but at one point one really has to improve like your company has done. It's not just your graphics design, it's also the polish of the game in general that's worth a compliment. One recent title from a Swedish studio, also a one with a low budget, received a patch almost EVERY day for like 3 weeks....go figure.

And this is the last comment I've added to this thread.

Keep up the good work!