Army Construction vs. Knights

Vitzh · Post by **Vitzh** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:51 pm

I have been learning the game vs. a Knight heavy army. A typical list includes 16 stands of Knights at 800 points. I have tried a variety of units against them but the PoA and extra dice Knights provide prove to be too much, and often decisively so. The end result is that army construction more and more favors things that can evade a charge from Knights, or the few things that can stand up to them. This makes our games take a very long time as I attempt to maneuver to charge knights on the flank while slowing the center down with skirmishers.

From what I have seen Knights deal incredibly well against everything but Elephants and solid heavy infantry. Is there anything else I am missing? Cataphracts seem to be a particularly bad matchup but so is most everything else.

Is there something we are missing?

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:06 pm

A combination of troops that can skirmish, preferably ones that can shoot as well, plus solid heavy foot like pikes or spearmen is the probably the best way to deal with knights.

Chris

Vitzh · Post by **Vitzh** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:08 pm

I guess part of my issue is that Sassassinds don't have access to the solid heavy foot part, which seems rather vital.

azrael86 · Post by **azrael86** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:11 pm

Answer to original post - Longbow by the sound of it.

If you are sassanids playing knight armies then why would you expect to be able to stand up to a massed charge by medieval knights with 500+ years of armour and horse technology?

The elephants should be OK, if they have rear support.

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:18 pm

I believe that longbow or shooty cav, plus handgunners (which is the key part) have been known to make a mess of Knights. Not sure that knight like Bow and Defensive Spear armies too much, especially if the BG foot are large enough to not have to take a CT.

James Hamilton recommends Welsh, with 60 bases of unprotected MF Longbow. They seem to be able to cater for 16 Knights.

MCollett · Post by **MCollett** » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:05 pm

batesmotel wrote:A combination of troops that can skirmish, preferably ones that can shoot as well, plus solid heavy foot like pikes or spearmen is the probably the best way to deal with knights.

I resemble that remark, though I think the shooting is optional. My Later Visigoths (centre of defensive spear, flanks of light spear cavalry) generally enjoy fighting knights.

Best wishes,
Matthew

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:19 am

azrael86 wrote:Answer to original post - Longbow by the sound of it.

If you are sassanids playing knight armies then why would you expect to be able to stand up to a massed charge by medieval knights with 500+ years of armour and horse technology?

The elephants should be OK, if they have rear support.

I would think that elephants plus a couple big BGs of Levy as HF Defensive spearmen could keep the knights awfully busy if not actually beat them head on. Preferably with some generals to support the levy, and some drilled superior armoured bow, sword cavalry to work the flanks of the knights.

Chris

azrael86 · Post by **azrael86** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:51 am

Of course the trick is not to beat the knights. Most medieval armies have Knights plus something else. The something else is usually not very good, so th ebest approach is to beat that, and not to lose to the knights. Aside from French Ordonnance most kn armies have weak foot that can be bullied.

fgilson · Post by **fgilson** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:53 am

batesmotel wrote:
azrael86 wrote:Answer to original post - Longbow by the sound of it.

If you are sassanids playing knight armies then why would you expect to be able to stand up to a massed charge by medieval knights with 500+ years of armour and horse technology?

The elephants should be OK, if they have rear support.
I would think that elephants plus a couple big BGs of Levy as HF Defensive spearmen could keep the knights awfully busy if not actually beat them head on. Preferably with some generals to support the levy, and some drilled superior armoured bow, sword cavalry to work the flanks of the knights.

Chris

During deployment, leave a depth gap of 2 stands of HF so that you can place your defensive spear last, right in front of where knights have deployed, but in front of your other troops (who then move to flanks).

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:09 pm

>and extra dice Knights provide

Whoa, hold on there a second...

The knights shouldn't be getting extra dice in combat, unless they either have an overlap (which should be hard for them, considering knights are so expensive!), or you are also fighting in one rank. In either case you are asking for more trouble than strictly necessary.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:24 pm

ShrubMiK wrote:>and extra dice Knights provide

Whoa, hold on there a second...

The knights shouldn't be getting extra dice in combat, unless they either have an overlap (which should be hard for them, considering knights are so expensive!), or you are also fighting in one rank. In either case you are asking for more trouble than strictly necessary.

They do get extra dice. Two per base whereas most troops only get 1. So, if a unit of 4 knights is fighting a unit of 6 cats the knights normall have more dice.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:37 pm

ShrubMiK wrote:>and extra dice Knights provide

Whoa, hold on there a second...

The knights shouldn't be getting extra dice in combat, unless they either have an overlap (which should be hard for them, considering knights are so expensive!), or you are also fighting in one rank. In either case you are asking for more trouble than strictly necessary.

The usual formation when fighting with Knights in impact is IMO 3 wide and one base behind and you get 6 dice that way, in the movement phase you can expand that extra base if required. Just what I do going in with only two bases loses dice in the impact phase when you could be at a plus or double plus.
Dave

Scrumpy · Post by **Scrumpy** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:46 pm

I found the solution to some Norman armoured knights last evening, a unit of 6 poor lf bow !

First shot...3x 5s... Normans fail test & die.
Second Shot...4,5, 6 re-roll gives a 5... Normans pass both tests.

Unluckily for them they have to charge as they fail their don't charge test, my foot evade leaving a 4 man armoured knight unit smiling as the Normans ride close enough to be kebabed on some lances. Ends up with my 8 dice againt 2 fragged Normans, not a pretty sight.

And even better as a man of Wessex I managed to avenge Harold by killing William the Tanner too.

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:11 pm

The knights don't get extra dice. They get extra dice per front-rank base, true, but that's not really the point when working out who is going win when they take on opponents who are two ranks deep.

(Unless...as I said before...they have an overlap. Which, naturally, their opponents should be trying to prevent...just as in any combat not involving knights!)

The motivation for me commenting was that the Original post seemed to be talking as if knights generally have both POA and extra dice advantage, which made me wonder if rules were being applied wrongly, e.g. knights fighting with 2 dice from each base in 2 ranks.

I think we know 6 cats vs. 4 knights is not a particularly good matchup, better to try something else

Vitzh · Post by **Vitzh** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:05 pm

fgilson wrote: During deployment, leave a depth gap of 2 stands of HF so that you can place your defensive spear last, right in front of where knights have deployed, but in front of your other troops (who then move to flanks).

I have been deploying the Elephants and Defensive Spear last. The defensive spear has been used as rear support for the elephants instead of fighting knights. As it is poor, would it really stand up to knights? 16 stands of Knights is a lot of tabletop to cover vs. 4 elephants and some defensive spear. I have been planning to add more elephants to the list and using my LH to dance in front of the knights.

Knights receive extra dice as they get two dice per stand, not one die but no support die. They also tend to outnumber cats as they essentially cost the same amount which makes overlaps all the more likely. Overall I have not found the Cats to be much good at anything.

Is 16 stands of knights considered a lot of knights at 800 points? Is it generally a good idea in list construction to get that focused or is this a rather extreme list?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:15 pm

16 knights is a high number but not outrageous. Most would have 12, a few 8, some 16, less 20, but average drilled can have a few more. The 20's will probably have some average if HA, if over 20 definately.

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:25 pm

Vitzh wrote:
fgilson wrote: During deployment, leave a depth gap of 2 stands of HF so that you can place your defensive spear last, right in front of where knights have deployed, but in front of your other troops (who then move to flanks).
I have been deploying the Elephants and Defensive Spear last. The defensive spear has been used as rear support for the elephants instead of fighting knights. As it is poor, would it really stand up to knights? 16 stands of Knights is a lot of tabletop to cover vs. 4 elephants and some defensive spear. I have been planning to add more elephants to the list and using my LH to dance in front of the knights.

Knights receive extra dice as they get two dice per stand, not one die but no support die. They also tend to outnumber cats as they essentially cost the same amount which makes overlaps all the more likely. Overall I have not found the Cats to be much good at anything.

Is 16 stands of knights considered a lot of knights at 800 points? Is it generally a good idea in list construction to get that focused or is this a rather extreme list?

The Defensive Spear can't give the elephants rear support since they are poor and the elephants are average. The levy are up a POA at impact and even in melee against the knights if they are steady. After one round of melee, the knights have to break off if the levy haven't lost cohesion so I think it is reasonable to use the Levy in the front line, especially with a commander attached to help them pass cohesion tests.

Chris

fgilson · Post by **fgilson** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:31 am

batesmotel wrote:
Vitzh wrote:
fgilson wrote: During deployment, leave a depth gap of 2 stands of HF so that you can place your defensive spear last, right in front of where knights have deployed, but in front of your other troops (who then move to flanks).
I have been deploying the Elephants and Defensive Spear last. The defensive spear has been used as rear support for the elephants instead of fighting knights. As it is poor, would it really stand up to knights? 16 stands of Knights is a lot of tabletop to cover vs. 4 elephants and some defensive spear. I have been planning to add more elephants to the list and using my LH to dance in front of the knights.

Knights receive extra dice as they get two dice per stand, not one die but no support die. They also tend to outnumber cats as they essentially cost the same amount which makes overlaps all the more likely. Overall I have not found the Cats to be much good at anything.

Is 16 stands of knights considered a lot of knights at 800 points? Is it generally a good idea in list construction to get that focused or is this a rather extreme list?
The Defensive Spear can't give the elephants rear support since they are poor and the elephants are average. The levy are up a POA at impact and even in melee against the knights if they are steady. After one round of melee, the knights have to break off if the levy haven't lost cohesion so I think it is reasonable to use the Levy in the front line, especially with a commander attached to help them pass cohesion tests.

Chris

I would absolutely put Poor Levey defensive spear opposite enemy knights. My spear would be in as large units as I'm permitted so as suggested by Bates a general can assist them (especially if the knights have generals with them).

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:02 am

Spear, whether offensive or defensive, are the bane of knights. Especially if they have shooters nearby to soften up the knights.
Try this: Use your LH to goad the knights into a charge that will drag them in front of the levy spear. Make sure that you have a gap big enough to sqeeze through. Then the knights will need to CMT not to charge the spear, and if they fail - knight kabobs!!! Unless you go disrupted, then you are toast.

david53 · Post by **david53** » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:04 am

Vitzh wrote:
fgilson wrote: During deployment, leave a depth gap of 2 stands of HF so that you can place your defensive spear last, right in front of where knights have deployed, but in front of your other troops (who then move to flanks).
I have been deploying the Elephants and Defensive Spear last. The defensive spear has been used as rear support for the elephants instead of fighting knights. As it is poor, would it really stand up to knights?

Is that defensive spear poor? if so can they give rear support to Elephants who are average?