Another charge problem, to be sure....

[rbodleyscott]

Peter,
I did read the rules and the FAQ together before I posted the reply and page 58 is quite clear, and I quote
"(If the enemy who would be charged are capable of evading - see later - assume a charge move distance of 2 MUs more than the shock troops' normal move distance. This is the maximum variable move distance that could be added.)"

Please explain where I am getting confused.

The confusion/ambiguity arises from a formatting error in the printed rules. The bit in brackets was supposed to be directly attached to the preceding paragraph, and only applies to that paragraph.

The FAQ specifically clarifies this issue:

Do shock troops have to test not to charge enemy who are outside their normal charge reach but within charge reach + 2 MUs?

No. (The paragraph in brackets on P.58 only applies to situations where they may be exempt from testing).

[donkiesrus2003]

Just so I understand,
Shock cavalry would not need to test if LF were 4MU away in the open but there was uneven ground 6MU away as 4 + 2 would put then in disordering terrain.
Also say the uneven ground was 2MU away (catching it at a corner) they would not be required to test either since 4 - 2 would put them in disordering terrain.
Is that what the bit in brackets is referring to?

[petedalby]

Correct on both.

Sorry I was unable to explain it as well as RBS.

[bawawa]

So my question is :

In the FAQ chapter 4/Vii what means the word "range" between bracket for the potentially revealed target :

1/Charger normal move,
2/Charger normal move plus anticipation of any further charger VDM, or
3/Charger normal move plus already rolled, so, known VDM, or
4/Charger normal move + anticipation of any charger VDM + forward step if the initial evading target in contacted ??????
5/Charger normal move + plus already rolled, so, known VDM + forward step if the initial evading target in contacted ??????

None of these options give the same thing and it's a big difference in tactic for "shoot and run" armies and their opponents.

Please Richard help us !!!!!!
Just tell me 1,2,3,4,or 5

Many thanks to all of you, guys !!!

As I understand it, it is 1, 3 and 5.

So once the original target has evaded:

IF original target outide normal move distance:

Other enemy BG within normal move distance are now a target and can evade

IF all targets in normal distance have evaded out of normal distance, roll VMD, then

Other enemy BG within normal move +VMD distance are now a target and can evade

Now you move the chargers. If they contact anything:

Other enemy BG that would be contacted by a step forward are now a target and can evade.

NB Each target can only evade once.

I do not agree cause with your option you may have evade moves after charge moves, that's not the turn sequence ! But maybe I'm wrong !

[rogerg]

The evade move will be made before the charge move, but after the chargers roll the VMD. I agree it is an anomaly, but it works.

[kevinj]

I do not agree cause with your option you may have evade moves after charge moves, that's not the turn sequence ! But maybe I'm wrong !

The way that this typically works out is:

BG A charges BG X who decides to evade.

Both roll for VMD. X moves.

The path of A's charge would bring it into contact with a new target Y. This BG now has the normal range of options, one of which may be evade. If Y decides to evade the player rolls a VMD and moves Y.

If this reveals another target repeat the process.

A then makes its charge move.

[spikemesq]

Some would call the BG in range of the VMD an "outlier."

The consensus is that outliers may evade, notwithstanding the RAW and the FAQ.

Spike

The devil.

[bawawa]

I do not agree cause with your option you may have evade moves after charge moves, that's not the turn sequence ! But maybe I'm wrong !

The way that this typically works out is:

BG A charges BG X who decides to evade.

Both roll for VMD. X moves.

The path of A's charge would bring it into contact with a new target Y. This BG now has the normal range of options, one of which may be evade. If Y decides to evade the player rolls a VMD and moves Y.

If this reveals another target repeat the process.

A then makes its charge move.

It seems better to me, even if I think, charger don't have to roll it's VDM, before to have to move, instead, the revealed target can measure and takes its own risk, it is a big difference for the tactic.
So what I see is that nobody has the same way to understand the rule on this particular point, if Richard Bodley Scott can help us telling what is the original spirit of that rule on this point !

[bawawa]

Some would call the BG in range of the VMD an "outlier."

The consensus is that outliers may evade, notwithstanding the RAW and the FAQ.

Spike

The devil.

seems logical, but what about, if the charger reached with one base the initial target, at a VDM limit, and the forward step of the other bases catch an "outlier" ??? As charges are done, you can't evade anymore !!!! so what can this outlier do ???

[ShrubMiK]

It can evade.

I think that's how most people play it? It certainly seems the sensible way to me.

[kevinj]

so what can this outlier do ???

It will be apparent before moving the charger if the "outlier" will become a target of the charge. At that point the reponse option can be decided, including evade if possible, before moving the charging unit.

[bawawa]

so what can this outlier do ???

It will be apparent before moving the charger if the "outlier" will become a target of the charge. At that point the reponse option can be decided, including evade if possible, before moving the charging unit.

Agree, but question remains, does the charger rolls its VDM before the outlier decision to evade ....or not ?
If we refere to full turn sequence, I suppose no....if we refere the way we currently play it (in France)....yes,

I think this point is fundamental, regard of the type of army, first case is an advantage for the shock armies, second is an advantage for the "shoot and run" armies

[hammy]

so what can this outlier do ???

It will be apparent before moving the charger if the "outlier" will become a target of the charge. At that point the reponse option can be decided, including evade if possible, before moving the charging unit.

Agree, but question remains, does the charger rolls its VDM before the outlier decision to evade ....or not ?
If we refere to full turn sequence, I suppose no....if we refere the way we currently play it (in France)....yes,

I think this point is fundamental, regard of the type of army, first case is an advantage for the shock armies, second is an advantage for the "shoot and run" armies

The outlier does not have the option to evade if the chargers VMD will not take it into contact. Until the roll of the VMD the outlier is not a charge target. Once a high VMD is rolled then the outlier becomes a target and gets to react.

[petedalby]

Given the consistent assurances you've received Eric, hopefully you are more comfortable with this now?

If not, as you're in France, why not check with Gilles Wielgosz or Olivier Dader? I'm pretty sure they play it the same way we do?

[donkiesrus2003]

Correct on both.

Sorry I was unable to explain it as well as RBS.

Thanks for your patience Peter.

[bawawa]

Thanks for that clarification, I have good contact with Olivier and Gilles but anyway, we were not sure of the "word of god" for this point!!!!
That's clear now !
Hope to see all of you around a Fog table
Many thanks !!!!
Eric