Metric verses imperial

tilman · Post by **tilman** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:19 pm

Hi,
the real problem with imperial is that almost all BASES of figurines are in metric.
Now, to have the bases in metric (you don't propose to rebase, do you?) but movement
etc. in imperial is pita, because highly impractical, as you do not get those two things to match, frex
to turn to face and move over, you usualy do not get clear of a neighbouring element or bg.
no fun
Tilman

montezuma · Post by **montezuma** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:24 am

Tilman,
bases have been in metric and the rules distances in Imperial for over 25 years, 6th edition, WAB, Warhammer Fantasy, and the rules all work with no from that point of view. Plus all the table sizes are based on a 6' by 4' format for 25mm as well.

To argue that mixing metric base sizes with Imperial distances causes a problem is fallacious as it is not backed up by the evidence.

regards
Paul

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 am

However, in 2006 it does look rather dated and a bit silly.

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:45 pm

Can I point out that the figure sizes themselves are all metric?

Everybody says 15mm, 25mm, 28mm, etc miniatures, and the bases are in millimeters, but the rules distances are all in inches, and the regulation table sizes are in feet...correct?

LOL, what a mish-mash

But if that godsawful mix-up already exists, then who could fault you for just going with the flow? For that matter, you could choose to do anything at all, and nobody would really have room to complain.

This is all such a lot for an outsider like myself to absorb. I've never owned or played miniatures in my life, although I've certainly seen them played a bit.

What strikes me is how much politics seems to be involved. For example, Slitherine has to choose a base size already in use, because most miniatures gamers will reject any rules set that forces them to re-base their existing armies? I can see that, and understand it, but it seems dreadfully unfortunate that their design decisions are thusly constrained.

Inevitably, someone will reply here excoriating me for my ignorance in not realising how much time, effort, and money goes into basing an army. Ah well, I am ignorance incarnate...

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:41 am

The base size issue isn't politics it's a case of being sensible when dealing with your potential customer base.

Trust me, if you were looking at rebasing many thousands of bases of figures you would realise why. Like most gamers with such a collection I wouldn't touch a set of rules that required me to rebase with the proverbial barge pole no matter how good they were.

tilman · Post by **tilman** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:39 am

Hi all,
in 6th ed the imperial distances did not do much harm, as Basing was per Figure.
In DBX it does not work correct at all. FREX foot moves are 5 or 7,5 cm while bases are
4 cm wide.
This prompts an extra rule to make 5 cm quick elts be able to turn to face at all (absolutly unnecesary if
metric) this makes it imposible to clear 2 elts even for oo Inf.
As you see, we do not use imperial on the continent anyway but very odly rounded metric...
Even the phil uses metric in dbmm and for good reason.
I do not belive in mix ups.
Tilman

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:54 pm

Okay...

Again, apologies for my apalling ignorance, can you please define...

FREX?
elts?
oo inf?
phil?

But if you're saying make it all metric, I agree! In fact, I said that much earlier in this thread

Rebasing seems to be the only major no-no, and if I understand correctly, the metric figures are already mounted on metric bases, right? So all Slihterine has to do is bite the bullet and makes the rules distances metric, and maybe someone somewhere re-defines the regulation table sizes?

Tilman, how do you on the continent currently deal with the regulation table sizes being defined in feet?

I know that, in a sense, I should just shut up and stay out of this discussion, but I am interested, and I am seriously thinking of taking up miniatures when Slitherine releases their rules set...

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:15 am

FREX = for example
elts = elements i.e. bases
oo inf = open order infantry
Phil = Phil Barker

Continental gamers use metric sized table - easy really. [in fact even if you used one made to imperila sizes you just measure in metric, not rocket science

]

I'd certainly recommend miniature gaming BTW.

montezuma · Post by **montezuma** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:39 am

Tilman,
there is no really good reason for using metric. As I said before Games Workshop rules are all in Imperial and they are the most popular wargames rules in the world especially among the younger gamers.

Speaking personally I was the first school year in Britain to be taught metric right from the start, and I have to convert everything into Imperial just to get a sense of scale. Bags of sugar for weight and yards plus a bit for metres. There are an awful lot of people like me in Britain which is probably the greatest market for wargames rules of this type.

Despite the attempts of successive governemnts to coerce the British public to use metric, Imperial is still more popular and used, even by the younger people, so why should things be changed, there is no point.

regards
Paul

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:22 am

As somebody who was taught imperial and metric at school I really don't buy this "we use it in GB, therefore, put it in the rules" type argument.

More countries use metric as default and I really don't care what GW or anyone else uses - imperial is generally seen on a world wide scale as out dated. Do Slitherine want the rules to look new or old fashioned?

duncan · Post by **duncan** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:58 am

GW does use metric in Spain, France, Germany...so they use imperial only in the UK and the "empire", as Mr Churchill said. If UK has to set the standard, I'll have to change my steering wheel position ... :

salohza · Post by **salohza** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:59 pm

Afternoon all

In South Africa and in SADC countries it is illegal to sell any product not using the metric system.

Regards
Nick

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:49 pm

duncan wrote:GW does use metric in Spain, France, Germany...so they use imperial only in the UK and the "empire", as Mr Churchill said. If UK has to set the standard, I'll have to change my steering wheel position ... :

Uhh, wait. OK, so GW rules sold in the UK have movement and fire range stated in inches? But the same rules sets when sold in Spain/France/Germany have the movements and fire range stated in millimeters/centimeters?

Then WTF happens when a Spanish gamer and a Welsh gamer play in a tourney in France? (easy answer, they discuss the delights of sheep, rofl)

No, but seriously, does the welshman move his units in inches? Do they both use metric because the tourney is in France? Does it just not matter because the equivalents are so close?

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:26 pm

I have both metric and imperial measuring 'sticks', if I play DBM ancients in the UK I use inches, outside the UK I use whatever the local organisers specify.

Yours

Hammy

AlanCutner · Post by **AlanCutner** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:15 pm

My 11 year old son has been wargaming in DBM for several years, and competed in several competitions. Several of you will have played against him. He is not taught imperial measurement, even though he's at a British school. Imperial measurement is foreign to him, and he only uses it for wargaming. He has made the following points to me -

1. He, and other kids his age, cannot easily visualise an imperial distance, making it harder to play the game.

2. If some measurements are in metric (eg. base sizes) and others in imperial its asking a lot for him to do conversions quickly.

Please remember that he and his friends are the future of wargaming.

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:54 pm

Excellent point.

Assuming that tabletop gaming actually has a future, which some might doubt.

jre · Post by **jre** » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:17 pm

I am not really worried about the future, and wargaming certainly has a present.

There are both 25 mm and 1 inch (25.4 mm) division measuring sticks in Spain, depending on how old school people are. If there is a difference, you just use the same set for both players. Certainly I do not have the discrimination to differentiate 100 mm from 101.6 mm.

Measuring just requires both players agree on the scale to use. Basing however is more serious, as you need that all bases fit front to front.

So I think the inch = 25 mm does work quite well for most practical aspects, if the existing base sizes are kept.

Jos?©

rodested · Post by **rodested** » Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:35 pm

In real life playing in matrics against playing in imperial is not a big problem, just makes our life a little more dificult (mmm ... 100 steps, its 2 inches so ... 5cm ...) .

The curious thing here is that it only applies to distances in the table ??? Do not you find it curious?
I mean, all of us buy figures thinking in 15mm, 25mm, and build the bases thinking in 4cmx3cm (ok, this is the real world) ... but when i have to know where is going to reach my heavy infantry (the game world) ... should we measure in ??inches? ... and those cm and mm, where have they gone?

I think that using metrics has at least two clear advantages for me:
- it is based in 10 (you easily convert units)
- thinking in cm vs inch ... the cm is smaller (but big enough in game terms) than inch, so it is easier to handle and more flexible in distance terms for the game table: i.ex: heavy infantry moves 2.5 cm, light-heavy 3, light 4 (subtle but different)... and in inches we would have 1, 1.3 , and 1.7 ... more difficult to handle

Best Regards,

mick · Post by **mick** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:15 am

Sorry chaps I rarely post but I thing this is like the old debate tradition hampers progress don featherstone(bless him) and Mr Barker among others use inches. Times have changed mm it is. Unless we go the more obscure road of bowshot,javelin throw etc set at a peticular distance regards mick

airfix · Post by **airfix** » Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:41 pm

Here in Germany we live with the curious distances.
My bases are 20mm or 25mm. The gun shoots 30"...
But we play WAB with 1/72 (20mm) miniatures and 1" = 1 cm. Coming from WFB and inch it looks odd at first.
BTW: Plumbers use 2" pipes and my computer has a 3,5" HDD.
If i like the rules it is of no importance if distances are messured in mm or inch.