Metric verses imperial

foxgom · Post by **foxgom** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:09 pm

Hi

I understand fully that inches are a convenient form of measure for wargames.
I guess that most of the rule writers are over 40 and learned imperial units as a child.

Please consider using metric units...

1. imperial units have not been taught in British schools for over 30 years.
2. the international community has no idea how big an inch is.
3. It is becoming difficult to acquire imperial tape measures.
4. It is possibly illegal to sell rules specifing inches, rather like selling potatoes in pounds instead of kilos.

I assume that you want to achieve a

a) young market
b) international market.

Using inches contradicts these aims in no small way

neil

jdm · Post by **jdm** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:26 pm

Neil

This is a tricky one and one we have considered. Not reached an answer though

For Europe its a no brainer, howver the USA is definately not metricated and don't think it ever will be

Australia and SA also are also still in Imperial (I think).

Some one will let me know if this is not the case

Regards
JDM

dfmbrown · Post by **dfmbrown** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:04 pm

Hi there,

Australia has been Metric since 1973 (IIRC), except for furtive imports of UK wargaming publications.

Regards

David b

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:09 am

Hey, I'm both American, and over 40

Most Americans, (but by no means all), know that an inch is about 25 mm, a liter is more or less a quart or 1/4 gallon, roughly 2.2 pounds equals a kilogram, one kilometer is about 1100 yards or very roughly 3/5 of a mile, etc.

Then, of course, there's the nagging business of a US Gallon being 20% smaller than an Imperial Gallon because we have only 8 fluid ounces in our pint, versus 10 fluid ounces in an british pint. Both systems have 2 pints in a quart, and 4 quarts in a gallon.

You know, going over all this crap, I can see why you euros groan, roll your eyes, and think us crazy for refusing to embrace the metric system. It is arcane, medieval and arbitrary, I must admit

Furthermore, every ruler/tape measure/yardstick I've ever seen in the US has had millimeters on the other side of it.

Iain, I could almost see you publishing the thing in all metric, and telling us Americans to just use the other side of our ruler. It wouldn't seem to me like any real hardship, but then again, I am emphatically not representative of the American mainstream.

Post by **IainMcNeil** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:49 am

Neil, please post feedback to the beta forum - not the open one! If you do not have access yet you will do sson, but hold of on anything until then!!

duncan · Post by **duncan** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:58 pm

Here in Spain we have dual tape measures widely available (inches/mm), I use them a lot for my DBA Spartan army I'm building right now. But I must confess I would prefer something based in international units (metric), inches are a mess

gwindel · Post by **gwindel** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:49 pm

Whilst here in Belgium we use metric, I must say that for wargames I like inches. It seems easier and in proportion with the games.
But I can not understand how you can use the imperial system for calculations in physics

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:16 pm

gwindel wrote:Whilst here in Belgium we use metric, I must say that for wargames I like inches. It seems easier and in proportion with the games.
But I can not understand how you can use the imperial system for calculations in physics

Oh come on, gwindel. Units of measurement are completely arbitrary. I grant you that the metric system is more logically organised, but it's still an arbitrary system.

For that matter, lightyears and angstrom units are neither metric nor english, they just are

gwindel · Post by **gwindel** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:37 am

Eeeerrhh, yes, but metric system is on base ten. Which makes it a little easier to handle (or do I miss something on imperial?).

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:04 am

However, when actually playing a game all you (effectively) use is a stick with marks on it at various intervals. Whether these intervals are metric or imperial makes next to no practical difference during play.

That said IMO the rules are probably best published with metric as the primary unit of measurement these days - in fact I have a feeling that technically for the EU it would be required

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:00 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:However, when actually playing a game all you (effectively) use is a stick with marks on it at various intervals. Whether these intervals are metric or imperial makes next to no practical difference during play.

That said IMO the rules are probably best published with metric as the primary unit of measurement these days - in fact I have a feeling that technically for the EU it would be required

Are you kidding me? You actually have a law requiring that?

gwindel · Post by **gwindel** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:12 pm

Of course not.
Scales used in stores, that can be certified or controled by the local administration are to be labeled in decimal system, for fairness sake.
You can, of course, write any book using any system you want or even invent your own.

tadamson · Post by **tadamson** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:53 pm

possum wrote:Hey, I'm both American, and over 40

Most Americans, (but by no means all), know that an inch is about 25 mm, a liter is more or less a quart or 1/4 gallon, roughly 2.2 pounds equals a kilogram, one kilometer is about 1100 yards or very roughly 3/5 of a mile, etc.

Then, of course, there's the nagging business of a US Gallon being 20% smaller than an Imperial Gallon because we have only 8 fluid ounces in our pint, versus 10 fluid ounces in an british pint. Both systems have 2 pints in a quart, and 4 quarts in a gallon.

Sums up the 'merican system - they have 16 fl.oz. per pint, vs Imperial 20 fl.oz.

Definately should be all metric (indeed all distances should be in mm, so there's no confusion with cm even)

You know, going over all this crap, I can see why you euros groan, roll your eyes, and think us crazy for refusing to embrace the metric system. It is arcane, medieval and arbitrary, I must admit

Furthermore, every ruler/tape measure/yardstick I've ever seen in the US has had millimeters on the other side of it.

Iain, I could almost see you publishing the thing in all metric, and telling us Americans to just use the other side of our ruler. It wouldn't seem to me like any real hardship, but then again, I am emphatically not representative of the American mainstream.

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:06 am

Doh, you're right. I said 8 and 10 oz's per pint, and I meant per cup! So, you are right; 16 and 20 oz's per pint is correct.

Clearly the british system is superior to our own. I mean, you get more beer for your money

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:53 am

Compared to a lot of American muck that is passed of as beer we actually get beer for our money

honvedseg · Post by **honvedseg** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:14 pm

Add me to the list of Americans who would be quite content to see the game released in metric units. Most Americans have had at least some limited exposure to the metric system, and should have a lot more in my opinion. The majority of products on store shelves here are dual-labelled with both English and metric weights and measures. Unfortunately, the schools don't seem to be pushing it anymore, not that they seem to be teaching much of anything else instead.

As for scientific use, the actual unit of measure used is irrelevant, since you can make the actual measurements in meters, feet, handspans, or whatever suits your fancy, and then convert that to whatever units fit your intended audience at your leisure. Granted, the final conversion step is a bit simpler when you just need to move the decimal point, but still fairly trivial even with an archaic unit of measure.

Alcohol in its various forms is sold by the milliliter in the USA, so the serious imbibers are actually leading the way toward metric conversion.

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:02 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:Compared to a lot of American muck that is passed of as beer we actually get beer for our money

Here now, british commercial beer is no better than its American counterpart, and it tastes worse because it's not even cold

Besides, no American in his or her right mind drinks commercial beers anymore. With the profusion of microbrews available, and even superior quality semi-commercial brews like Sammy Adams, there's no reason to.

montezuma · Post by **montezuma** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:20 pm

At present under UK law I believe it is illegal to put up signposts in metric, so there is no argument for using this system under EU law. In fact Games Workshop have just released the latest edition of the Warhammer Fantasy Rules using Imperial as the measuring system, and I feel they would not do this if it was illegal (of course I may be wrong).

I am in my 40's and was educated entirely in metric, and I mean entirely, and I have no real idea of metric measurements. I have to convert it into Imperial to get an idea of scale. I don't think using Imperial is a problem, after all it hasn't done us any harm so far, and as for attracting younger people, it doesn't seem to have hurt Games Workshop by sticking to Imperial either.

regards
Paul

Redpossum · Post by **Redpossum** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:22 am

montezuma-

Whoa, interesting! GW is still using the imperial system, eh?

On a very trivial note, I did manage to find an inches-only yardstick around here, but it's at least 40 years old. I inherited this house from my grandparents, and I have found some amazingly old stuff here. Things such as a partial bottle of blueing and wooden clothespins so old they have no spring.

montezuma · Post by **montezuma** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:29 am

Possum -

absolutely, in the UK at least Games Workshop uses Imperial. The only exception to this is the Lord of the Rings games which uses for example 7.5cm/3" in the rules, and apparently this was only because New Line Cinemas from whom they have the licence, insisted. Otherwise that would have been Imperial only as well.

Nearly all measures sold in the UK have both Imperial and Metric, and there are always Imperial measures on ebay.

regards
Paul