arab conquest

[benos]

having dug out my arab figures from my old andalusian army, i came up with this army for fog. Is it viable and what changes should the last 30 points go on to get to 800 pts?
4 tcs
5 bgs of 6 sup hf ptd und off spr + 3 lf sup uptd bw
6 cv sup arm und lncr swds
2 bgs of 6 lh unp ave und lncr swds
8 mf ave ptd und bw
6 mf ave ptd und lgt spr
The idea is the mf guard one flank of the warriors while the cav cover the other, driving away lights delaying anything to dangerous?
Any views?
Cheers
Ben

[philqw78]

5 bgs of 6 sup hf ptd und off spr + 3 lf sup uptd bw

IIRC In Arab Conquest the spear BG must be 8-9 bases

6 cv sup arm und lncr swds
2 bgs of 6 lh unp ave und lncr swds

I think this would be better as 3x4 LH

8 mf ave ptd und bw
6 mf ave ptd und lgt spr
Ben

I would use the bow as LF, drop the cav to a 4 and use dailami instead of MF bow or MF Lt Sp.

[philqw78]

Have used this

1 Archers LF Unprotected Superior Undrilled Bow - - - 6
2 Archers LF Unprotected Superior Undrilled Bow - - - 6
3 Slingers LF Unprotected Superior Undrilled Sling - - - 6
4 LH LH Unprotected Superior Undrilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4
5 LH LH Unprotected Superior Undrilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4
6 LH LH Unprotected Superior Undrilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4
7 Spearmen HF Protected Superior Undrilled - Offensive spearmen Spearmen - 6
7 Supporting Archers LF Unprotected Superior Undrilled Bow - - - 3
8 Spearmen HF Protected Superior Undrilled - Offensive spearmen Spearmen - 6
8 Supporting Archers LF Unprotected Superior Undrilled Bow - - - 3
9 Spearmen HF Protected Superior Undrilled - Offensive spearmen Spearmen - 8
10 Spearmen HF Protected Superior Undrilled - Offensive spearmen Spearmen - 8
11 Spearmen HF Protected Superior Undrilled - Offensive spearmen Spearmen - 6
11 Supporting Archers LF Unprotected Superior Undrilled Bow - - - 3
12 Spearmen HF Protected Superior Undrilled - Offensive spearmen Spearmen - 6
12 Supporting Archers LF Unprotected Superior Undrilled Bow - - - 3
A CinC TC - - - - - - CinC 1
B Sub Generals TC - - - - - - - 3

with reasonable succes

[SirGarnet]

* Supporting archers for the warriors are 6 pts vs. 9 for the warriors, so reasonable but not terribly cost effective nor really necessary since mounted would prefer not to charge the spears in any case. One BG or warriors costs 72 points whether it is 8 Spears or 6+3 LF, and I'd rather have the Spears for flexibility and keeping ranks bonuses. I might take one or two BGs with the LF to line up against Knights or Elephants, but I wouldn't be too concerned without them. Also see the last note below...

* Armoured Dailami were and are desirable - the rear archers are very cost effective but are nicer as 6+3 than the 4+2 available. However, if you still field them 3-wide you get 5 dice fighting and 1 support shooting die if charged.

* Phil's doctrine looks like he expects to beat opposing skirmishers or do damage to heavy troops with his LF ( I might have expected the Persian ghilmans to work with the LF as well), but others and I would look at this as a shock army and take LF just for utility purposes, meaning a BG of Slingers (perhaps Superior more for resilience than shooting) and Javelins.

* Unarmoured Arab lancers can be underestimated. They are vulnerable in a firefight or melee but manoeuvrable and charge well.

* You rely on foot - there is also a tournament winning approach taking a lot of mountedand takes a combined arms strategy with the wall of spears pressing the enemy and acting as a base of manoeuvre for the mounted.

This uses the Jund, a big attraction of this army as you pay the 36 or 54 points for a BG of 6 Superior Off Spears and you can keep them mounted as Average Lancers if you wish (such a deal!).

Mike

P.S. I'd take the IC, especially with a mounted arm.

[benos]

cheers for the feedback gents, i was looking at bulking out the spear BGs for durability since they were only protected, however no reason not to try in 8s .
i was looking at the bedouin light horse in 6s as i'm likely to face a fair few shooty horse armies and they will probably need the numbers to close?
i will look over the troops for the other wing and see how they can be improved, the Dailami seem popular, so will think about them a lot.

cheers again
Ben

[SirGarnet]

i was looking at the bedouin light horse in 6s as i'm likely to face a fair few shooty horse armies and they will probably need the numbers to close?

Their advantage is the Lance POA and the enemy's CT modifer on Impact. If fighting bow LH in 4s, you are only going to impact 2 bases and the lance file will only count on overlap. I personally would rather have 3x4 than 2x6 in order to have one more maneuver unit. That extra BG can come up in overlap for Melee if needed, move to flank charge position, or do something else. If fighitng bow or javelin LH in 6s, you are going to have the impact edge and have the melee edge as well if they are not swordsmen - 4 on 4s has the same expected hits as 6 on 5s - and again you can bring up that other BG if needed.

i will look over the troops for the other wing and see how they can be improved, the Dailami seem popular, so will think about them a lot.

I strongly recommend laying out terrain in plausible (i.e., the other side doing whatever you would most dislike) configurations, laying out the army or proxies for it (per the drill and doctrine part of the post below), and moving the troops for a few turns against imaginary opponents. Shift things around, adjust the troops and order of march, etc. - the more complex the army, the more it helps. You can run through a whole series of exercises in the time it takes for one test battle.

[madmike111]

I second the idea of not adding the 3rd rank of LF to the protected spear for a couple of reasons:

1. If you loss a spear base the LF the moves into the 2nd rank doesn't help keep the +pOA for 2 ranks of spearmen.
2. The LH only shoot at impact against mounted and its only one dice per 2 bases, so with 3 LF in a 3rd rank you get one extra dice..sometimes and even then they suffer a -POA for shooting into a melee.
3. The cost of the LF and HF are reasonable cost, might as well just by more HF

Much better to field them as a separate unit.


However its worth adding a 3rd rank to the armoured Dailami as they are more than twice the cost and being swordsmen don't reply on a second rank for a POA.

[philqw78]

however no reason not to try in 8s .
....
Ben

You can only have 8's or 9's

[benos]

guess my list could have been clearer, original list had 5 bgs each with 6 spear and 3 archer bases. I think i would on reflection swap 4 of them to 8 bases spear only and divide the light horse into bgs of 4.
How hard will this army be to manover? How effective is it as a strike force? Am i going to suffer badly vs sassanids and khazars? (2 most likely initial opponents)
Cheers
Ben

[SirGarnet]

Am i going to suffer badly vs sassanids and khazars? (2 most likely initial opponents)
Cheers
Ben

Well, you are going to want an IC for a start, and might want to read at least Part 10 on shooty horse in the article below.

You have enough spears to soak up any Sassy EL or Cataphracts. Others can press the cavalry and absorb shooting while your lancer cavalry is tucked between them ready to charge - their cav could let your warriors get very close and still evade with confidence when you charge, but with the lancer threat they could more easily get caught in the rear with a slow evade.

Keep your LH Lancers working in teams to avoid getting converged on with shooting.

Mike

[benos]

ok revised list, not sure where to find the pts for an ic though it would be nice.
4 troop commanders
4 bgs of 8 hf ptd sup und off spear
1 bg of 6 hf spear + 3 lf bow
3 bgs of 4 light horse, lancer etc
1 bg of 6 armoured sup lance cav
1 bg of 8 lf archers
1 bg of 4 dalami + 2 lf archers.
Cheers again for tips vs nomad cavalry v useful.!
Ben