Shifting Qs

[madcam2us]

A LH BG wants to make a 90 degree turn and move off at an angle in front of a friend HF BG:



When making the turn, one base is behind the HF BGs front:



and



Knowing that BGs can shift to avoid "clipping" friends the LH BG is shifted to:



And I think since the distance is less than 20mm it could complete a wheel to become flush with the HF like this"



However, my opponent wants to be able to move beyond the HF BG.

I believe this is only possible thusly:



But he believes that as long as the 20mm shift allows him to make it so he retains an angle allowing him to move thusly:



Which is correct?

Thanks

Madcam

[deadtorius]

page 45 shifting, shifts are not allowed when turning, sooo....

Guess the answer is neither is correct. They can turn but will have to wait until next turn to get by the HF.

Hope thats an easy answer to a difficult question

[madcam2us]

Forgot about that!!!!! Up till this time you pointed it out! Page 45 for those that want to read for themselves.

thanks

[deadtorius]

hey if orgot about that too till I looked it up
thankfully the rulebook is handy to the PC

[SirGarnet]

Might be wrong, but it says shifts are not allowed with turns, and the turn does not shift. Shifts are allowed for advances, and the subsequent advance has the shift. The half shift is not counted and the Advance is subject to normal rules otherwise.

So if he could do a legal advance with a half-shift I think it works.

Mike

[hammy]

I agree with Mike.

If you chech the simple and complex move chart on P42 you will find that what the light horse are doing is "Turn 90 with a SIMPLE advance before or after" In this case the move is turn 90 then advance.

The advance can either wheel to cross the front of the foot BG As in the fifth diagram (the light horse have wheeled to cross the front of the HF then shifted the minimum required) or advance straight forwards sort of like the sixth diagram with a shift of upto 20mm to pass the foot (looking at the first picture I think it is just possible to do a direct advance but with a tiny wheel it would definitley be OK)

You cannot shift in a turn but at the whole move is a turn followed by an advance this is fine.

[madcam2us]

Argh!

then going back to the pictures, is this turn with slight shift ok to make by the "minimum necessary" to clear the obstacle initially or can the moving player use "up to" 20mm to retain an angle?

Madcam.

[madcam2us]

I agree with Mike.

If you chech the simple and complex move chart on P42 you will find that what the light horse are doing is "Turn 90 with a SIMPLE advance before or after" In this case the move is turn 90 then advance.

The advance can either wheel to cross the front of the foot BG As in the fifth diagram (the light horse have wheeled to cross the front of the HF then shifted the minimum required) or advance straight forwards sort of like the sixth diagram with a shift of upto 20mm to pass the foot (looking at the first picture I think it is just possible to do a direct advance but with a tiny wheel it would definitley be OK)

You cannot shift in a turn but at the whole move is a turn followed by an advance this is fine.

By that logic, can I Contract, then during my advance forward shift?

Can I Expand, then during my advance forward, shift?

If so, then including those exceptions on page 45 are confusing and really serve no purpose...

Other thoughts?

Madcam.

[petedalby]

Oh dear - I find myself disagreeing wth Hammy & Mike.

P45 - 'Shifts are not permitted when charging, nor in second moves, nor with double wheels, expansions, contractions or turns.'

This has nothing to do with simple or complex moves. These are the types of move listed on p 42. So unless you just do an 'Advance' you cannot shift.

Or at least that is my reading of it?

Pete

[babyshark]

page 45 shifting, shifts are not allowed when turning, sooo....

Guess the answer is neither is correct. They can turn but will have to wait until next turn to get by the HF.

Hope thats an easy answer to a difficult question

Nice catch! I have been playing that wrong for a long time.

Marc

[philqw78]

I agree with Mr Dalby. Although playing with Hammy I play it Hammy's way as its easier than a discussion most of the time. So we are both cheating each other, and cheaters only cheat themselves. So it cancels out really.

[rbodleyscott]

Oh dear - I find myself disagreeing wth Hammy & Mike.

P45 - 'Shifts are not permitted when charging, nor in second moves, nor with double wheels, expansions, contractions or turns.'

This has nothing to do with simple or complex moves. These are the types of move listed on p 42. So unless you just do an 'Advance' you cannot shift.

Or at least that is my reading of it?

Pete

And an entirely correct reading too.

[hammy]

Oh dear - I find myself disagreeing wth Hammy & Mike.

P45 - 'Shifts are not permitted when charging, nor in second moves, nor with double wheels, expansions, contractions or turns.'

This has nothing to do with simple or complex moves. These are the types of move listed on p 42. So unless you just do an 'Advance' you cannot shift.

Or at least that is my reading of it?

Pete

And an entirely correct reading too.

Interesting. I have to say that is not what I think the rules say nor the way I have always played the game

The turn 90 and advance maneuver specificaly says that it is a turn followed by an advance or an advance followed by a turn. In the maneuvers section it defines how you turn

[hammy]

I agree with Mike.

If you chech the simple and complex move chart on P42 you will find that what the light horse are doing is "Turn 90 with a SIMPLE advance before or after" In this case the move is turn 90 then advance.

The advance can either wheel to cross the front of the foot BG As in the fifth diagram (the light horse have wheeled to cross the front of the HF then shifted the minimum required) or advance straight forwards sort of like the sixth diagram with a shift of upto 20mm to pass the foot (looking at the first picture I think it is just possible to do a direct advance but with a tiny wheel it would definitley be OK)

You cannot shift in a turn but at the whole move is a turn followed by an advance this is fine.

By that logic, can I Contract, then during my advance forward shift?

Can I Expand, then during my advance forward, shift?

If so, then including those exceptions on page 45 are confusing and really serve no purpose...

Other thoughts?

Madcam.

Hmm... I can see your point, it does rather look like I have been playing that one wrong then

[rbodleyscott]

Oh dear - I find myself disagreeing wth Hammy & Mike.

P45 - 'Shifts are not permitted when charging, nor in second moves, nor with double wheels, expansions, contractions or turns.'

This has nothing to do with simple or complex moves. These are the types of move listed on p 42. So unless you just do an 'Advance' you cannot shift.

Or at least that is my reading of it?

Pete

And an entirely correct reading too.

Interesting. I have to say that is not what I think the rules say

The rules do not say that a shift is not permitted during (or in) a turn, they say it is not permittent with a turn. This is intended to mean that if the move includes a turn (or any of the other things in the list) it cannot also include a shift.

As Madcam says (OMG I am agreeing with Madcam) the whole restriction would otherwise be ineffectual and hence pointless.

[hammy]

The rules do not say that a shift is not permitted during (or in) a turn, they say it is not permittent with a turn. This is intended to mean that if the move includes a turn (or any of the other things in the list) it cannot also include a shift.

The rules actually say:

Shifts are not permitted when charging, nor in second moves, nor with double wheels, expansions, contractions or turns.

The way I have played it has always been that when expanding (which has to happen before you move) you can't shift to avoid friends. Likewise when contracting if there is not room to place the bases you can't shift (unusual but possible) and turns must be completed without a shift.

I am happy enough playing that advances after a turn cannot shift to avoid clipping but I am still unconvinced that the rules are clear in the other way.

I do take the point that the contraction exception is pretty much redundant if it does not also apply to the advance part of a contraction but all the other exceptions are meaningful if they only apply to the specific maneuver defined.

[rbodleyscott]

The rules actually say:

Shifts are not permitted when charging, nor in second moves, nor with double wheels, expansions, contractions or turns.

They do indeed. That's what I said

[Blathergut]

Seems in essence, that a "charge/double wheel/expansion/contraction/turn" with an advance included, is NOT an Advance from the Moves Chart but one of those things with some forward movement included. You can't do two things from the chart in one turn.

[madcam2us]

And an entirely correct reading too.

Interesting. I have to say that is not what I think the rules say

The rules do not say that a shift is not permitted during (or in) a turn, they say it is not permittent with a turn. This is intended to mean that if the move includes a turn (or any of the other things in the list) it cannot also include a shift.

As Madcam says (OMG I am agreeing with Madcam) the whole restriction would otherwise be ineffectual and hence pointless.

Your Muse,

Madcam.

[deadtorius]

Egads!!!!

Feels like I opened the floodgates of disagreement....
perhaps a game designer might want to intervene on this one since it seems entirely dependent on how you interpret the rules as they are written.