Need help with Spartans

[vamrat]

I’ve just about got my Spartan list together and I have run into a snag. How important is Cavalry to a Classical Greek list?
I have two variant lists. Both lists have:

IC, 2x TC
Spartan Citizens: 3x BGs each of 8 stands. Armoured.
Perioikoi: 2x BGs each of 8 stands. Armoured.
Javelinmen: 2x BGs each of 6 stands, poor.
Slingers: 2x BGs each of 6 stands.

I have a choice of adding 1 more BG of Spartans with 8 stands, armoured, -or- 1 BG of non-Thessalian Cav., 6 stands, protected, average, and 1 BG of Perioikoi, 6 stands, armoured. The points work out either way.

Which one do you all think would be more beneficial? Are the Spartans my game winners, or would the added maneuver element of cavalry be better? If I do take the cav, should I take the Perioikoi as I have them, or take them as regular undrilled Hoplites and spend the extra points on Armour for the cav.?

Thanks!

[jlopez]

Go for the cavalry. An extra hoplite BG isn't going to make a difference to how your army works but a cavalry BG will.

Julian

[madmike111]

Make the hoplites 6s where they are superior.

[vamrat]

Make the hoplites 6s where they are superior.

Really? I figured with 8 they would have more staying power. They could loose two bases and still have two full rows (for the POA) if I keep two in the rear. Does anyone else think dropping to six might be a good idea? If so that would give me one more BG of Spartans keeping the same points cost.

[SirGarnet]

If you get those 6s opposite the right opponents then losing bases shouldn't be much of a problem - my observation is from facing Spartans who won't die and will fragment to tease you and then just bounce back up to steady.

[ethan]

I find having a BG of cavalry, even not particularly good cavalry, is pretty handy.

I would also do the Spartiates in 6s, they are pretty tough and the extra maneuverability is handy. I would also consider some allies to bring some cheap(er) undrilled hoplites as an option.

[vamrat]

Thank you all for your help. I think I will take the advice and drop the Spartiates to 6 stand BG's. That will leave me with 3x BGs of Spartans, 2x BGs of Perioikoi, 4x of assorted LF, and 1 BG of Cav. What should I use the extra points on? Should I get a fourth BG of 6 Spartans? Would any MF be useful suh as Thracian (would it even be historical?)

[SirGarnet]

But then one BG of 8 with a TC is a lot of rerolls for the critical spot in the line.

[expendablecinc]

i'd ditch the IC

- moving first is better than deploying first with foot sloggers
- you wont need an IC much for shooting as youve gone for the armoured chaps
- they shouldnt need an IC for complex moves with TCs about to glue onto the drilled BGs and shunt them about

I am also preparing a hoplite army and am painting towards the concept of two BGs of 8 armoured supported by one protected BG of 6.

[vamrat]

i'd ditch the IC

- moving first is better than deploying first with foot sloggers
- you wont need an IC much for shooting as youve gone for the armoured chaps
- they shouldnt need an IC for complex moves with TCs about to glue onto the drilled BGs and shunt them about

I am also preparing a hoplite army and am painting towards the concept of two BGs of 8 armoured supported by one protected BG of 6.

That would free me up 30 points. Armour for the horsies I guess. I will read up on the effect of Field commander or troop commanders. Actually troop commanders might be a better representation of hoplite commanders who mostly stood in the same area throughout the battle.

I'm still wondering what to do with the extra points from dropping the 8 stand Spartan BG's to 6 stands each. Should I add a 4th BG of Spartans. A fourth BG of Perioikoi, or a BG of medium foot?

Thanks for all the help, guy!!!

[Scrumpy]

I looked at this list, and thought it might work with non-Spartan hoplites in the middle of a line of 4 armoured 8s with 2 Perioikoi on the outside, supported by 2 armoured 6s of superior Citizens. Cover the front with a load of cheap javelins to negate any need to pre-emptive charge enemy skirmishers, and use the one bg of cavalry to delay on an open flank.

Not sure how it would work in reality as I have never gotten round to using it yet.

[deadtorius]

Advantage of medium foot is that they can go into the yucky terrain your heavies want to avoid. Move quicker and might be able to fall on a flank....
Just a thought. If you like the heavier hammering go for more Spartans, the more superior the better I always say.

[madaxeman]

Advantage of medium foot is that they can go into the yucky terrain your heavies want to avoid. Move quicker and might be able to fall on a flank....
Just a thought. If you like the heavier hammering go for more Spartans, the more superior the better I always say.

This army doesnt really need to go into terrain, they just fight anyone they meet outside it and beat them, and no MF are going to be keen on coming out and taking on armoured hoplites. Also are you seriously going to have more rough terrain troops than anyone else? Yours arent any better in ability than any other armies, and are highly likley to be worse.

Armoured hoplites are your best troops, and Spartiates are some of the best troops in any book. Almost everything else you could have is a waste of points IMO unless it either helps get you into combat more quickly (the LF can give you 1 or maybe 2 extra moves as long as you move first) of maybe slows doan anyone coming round your flank (the Cv maybe?).

Here's how we used Spartans in a tourney recently. http://www.madaxeman.com/reports/badcon_2009_1.php

tim

[DaiSho]

i'd ditch the IC

- moving first is better than deploying first with foot sloggers
- you wont need an IC much for shooting as youve gone for the armoured chaps
- they shouldnt need an IC for complex moves with TCs about to glue onto the drilled BGs and shunt them about

I am also preparing a hoplite army and am painting towards the concept of two BGs of 8 armoured supported by one protected BG of 6.

I personally like the IC for boosting of chance of passing shooting choehsion hits.

[madmike111]

In an open tournament the IC is a good buy. That extra pip on cohesion test means archery based armies are almost junk against superior armoured hoplites.

[DaiSho]

In an open tournament the IC is a good buy. That extra pip on cohesion test means archery based armies are almost junk against superior armoured hoplites.

Yup, and even against protected it's like a real hard slog to get them to fail a test, you're basically killing them with shooting not making them break.

Ian

[david53]

In an open tournament the IC is a good buy. That extra pip on cohesion test means archery based armies are almost junk against superior armoured hoplites.

Yup, and even against protected it's like a real hard slog to get them to fail a test, you're basically killing them with shooting not making them break.

Ian

I might disagree with you there, taking his army as an example

3x BGs of Spartans(plus a possible extra BG )All sixs Armoured Superior
2x BGs of Perioikoi All sixs Armoured Averages
4x BG of assorted LF
1 BG of Cav

Even taking a Saka army of 5 Lights and 5 Cav Bow/Sword to be honest you would'nt need to attack the Heavy foot just either stay out there way or slow them down.

I myself if faced with this army would go first for the 4 Light BG and the Cav BG that along with the camp would give you 12 points without the heavies or needing fives to hit.
Dave.

[DaiSho]

In an open tournament the IC is a good buy. That extra pip on cohesion test means archery based armies are almost junk against superior armoured hoplites.

Yup, and even against protected it's like a real hard slog to get them to fail a test, you're basically killing them with shooting not making them break.

Ian

I might disagree with you there, taking his army as an example

3x BGs of Spartans(plus a possible extra BG )All sixs Armoured Superior
2x BGs of Perioikoi All sixs Armoured Averages
4x BG of assorted LF
1 BG of Cav

Even taking a Saka army of 5 Lights and 5 Cav Bow/Sword to be honest you would'nt need to attack the Heavy foot just either stay out there way or slow them down.

I myself if faced with this army would go first for the 4 Light BG and the Cav BG that along with the camp would give you 12 points without the heavies or needing fives to hit.
Dave.

Oh, and the enemy would just LET you kill their lights would they? Just line them up for you to kill? They woudln't protect their baggage?

Wow, you must have some co-operative opponents.

Ian

[david53]

Yup, and even against protected it's like a real hard slog to get them to fail a test, you're basically killing them with shooting not making them break.

Ian

I might disagree with you there, taking his army as an example

3x BGs of Spartans(plus a possible extra BG )All sixs Armoured Superior
2x BGs of Perioikoi All sixs Armoured Averages
4x BG of assorted LF
1 BG of Cav

Even taking a Saka army of 5 Lights and 5 Cav Bow/Sword to be honest you would'nt need to attack the Heavy foot just either stay out there way or slow them down.

I myself if faced with this army would go first for the 4 Light BG and the Cav BG that along with the camp would give you 12 points without the heavies or needing fives to hit.
Dave.

Oh, and the enemy would just LET you kill their lights would they? Just line them up for you to kill? They woudln't protect their baggage?

Wow, you must have some co-operative opponents.

Ian

Now thats strange I never said they'd allow me to do that.

Now maybe thats were I'm going wrong with FOG , there was me thinking you had to have a plan silly me.

What I wrote was what I would have planned if facing that army.

Sorry i planned to go for his lights and I'm sure my clever opponent would have planned to do something with his troops and then I would have changed my plan to match my opponents plan and after 3 hours one of our plans would have worked out.......
dave

[madmike111]

If faced with a shooting enemy the Spartian really don't have a lot of options, one is to dig in around their camp. Boring and will result in a draw once the game time runs out. The IC + armoured + superior means the hoplites will very rarely fail a test. Realistic in a way.

Option B - set up the Hoplites in a extended line starting on one of the table edges, then advance by swinging the line along the table edge with the other flank anchored to the rear table edge. The whole line will end up facing 90degrees from its starting position, ie pointed towards the far table side edge. Then advance in a line along the table covering the whole length of the table. Eventually the cav will run out of table to run away too. Makes for a really long game but very hard to beat, had it happen to me.