Proposed Rules Mod - Flyer Troop Type (1)

[SirGarnet]

RULEMOD - FLYER Troop Type (Type 1) March 2009

DESIGN PRINCIPLES:
 (A) Aerial troops can be modeled several ways, including as a specific troop type (like Elephants are their own specific type– this is a Type 1 Flyer Mod) or as a Flyer attribute that could be available to multiple types (like Camelry – this is Type 2). Type 1 Mods are easier to define, test and balance than Type 2 because of the possible variations involved. For that reason a Type 1 Mod is the approach taken here.
 (B) The goal is a sweet spot where aerials enhance the game and provide unique tactical opportunities with a low risk of dominating or unbalancing it.
 (C) To help with (B), Flyers are assumed to be limited to a small percentage of any army, likely one or two BGs at most in those armies that may have them.
 (D) Flyer bases represent a modest number of large or a greater number of small aerials in a loose formation with spacing sufficient to allow effective flight and manoeuvre, most typically represented as the familiar avian V or wedge formation. Flyers may be sentient aerials or non-sentient ones controlled by riders, pack leaders, a queen of the species, a handler or a magic user. (Expendable swarms of small flying creatures near the ground might be more easily represented by the Pest Swarm Mod.)
 (E) Aerials are assumed to be designed or evolved to be economical in terms of added weight, emphasizing flight, speed, and agility rather than armour – analogous to Light Horse. Variations of this Mod could posit magical, anti-gravity or other methods of making mass irrelevant.
 (F) Aerial propulsion systems (e.g., wings, balloons) are as or more vulnerable to damage when struck and damage is more likely to disable its ability to fly, removing its key ability.
 (G) Flyers in this Mod are assumed to operate in large group formations controlled by instinctive, cultural, physical, or magical means of maintaining manoeuvre and control in 3 dimensions. They are assumed to keep moving for lift (so being stationary on the table represents wheeling or a spiral rather than hovering), and manoeuvre tactically by wheeling rather than left left or right turns. They may be slowed by the need to form and maintain cohesive formations and effective control. Consistent with Field of Glory principles, fatigue or energy constraints on prolonged flight are not simulated.
 (H) Flyers in this Mod can either be at High altitude, out of reach of normal opponents and unable to attack ground forces but able to more swiftly, or on or near the ground where they can attack and sometimes be attacked.
 (I) Flyers in this Mod are not powerful in head-on combat, preferring flank and rear attacks on engaged enemies, fighting in overlap, and raiding camps.
 (J) Flyers are useful for reconnaissance of ambushes and flank marches.
 (K) Shooting is dangerous to Flyers, and Flyers are very wary of shooters.

1. CLASSIFICATION:
 1.1 Flyers are Average. Comment: This is for the same design reason that all Elephants are Average. Designers may judiciously provide otherwise if necessary in an Add-On to this Mod.

 1.2 Flyers are Unprotected. Comment: This is in line with the LH behavior concept. Even if they have armour, this represents the vulnerability to damage of their ability to fly. Designers may add Protected, Armoured or Heavily Armoured where needed (e.g., larger Armoured Superior Flyers or Heavily Armoured great Dragons such as Smaug).

 1.3 Capabilities: Flyers representing mounts with Riders may have weapons Capabilities available to LH if no-Capability LH does not represent troop interactions properly. Comment: This is to avoid complexity. Add Capabilities with care.

 1.4 Special Attributes: Based on the fantasy realm, Flyers may have Camelry capability if the creatures are particularly disruptive to horses and they are not trained against this. Comment: Flyers are likely to cause some disorder in opponents but for simplicity this is considered reflected in overall combat effects. Some great Dragons might best be represented as Elephants rather than Flyers if the tactical interactions work. A +1 Death Roll modifier for great Dragons may also be added.

2. BASING AND BATTLE GROUP SIZE: Flyers should be in BGs of 2 square 40x40mm bases. Legacy 40x30mm bases are also acceptable if rebasing or temporary basing is not feasible. A very large creature such as a dragon, god, angel, or demon may be placed on a double-wide or double-depth base treated as 2 bases both always facing to the front of the model. TThey fight with the second rank in addition to the first, but the notional back base never turns separately from the front. Comment: 2-bases reflects the relative fragility and numbers of Flyers. This basing is HOTT-compatible and should provide room for various models.

3. SET-UP:
3.1 INITIATIVE: Flyers are treated as LH for initiative, except the first two Flyers count as 2 LH each. Comment: Initiative involves scouting in part, for which Flyers are more efficient than horsemen, but only needed in modest numbers. It also involves skirmishing and foraging, for which they have advantages and drawbacks.

3.2 FLANK MARCHES: When rolling for a flank march, the player may opt to announce if there are Flyers in the flank march on that side, in which case he rolls one extra die and detects the existence and number of BGs of any enemy flank march on that side on a 4-6. On a 1 the Flyers are dispersed and delayed an additional 2 turns, on a 2-3 things continue normally. Note Flyers are Drilled for other Flank March rolls. Comment: This choice is a modest bonus for Flyers. Allowing Flyers to speed up arrival of the Flank March risks a greater and possibly imbalancing impact.

3.3 AMBUSHES: High Flyers that pass over enemy ambush markers other than in trees or BUAs provide information consisting of the existence or non-existence and type of troops (such as MF, Pikemen or Knights) of the BG in ambush but it the BG itself is revealed only by Low Flyers or other troops in accordance with the normal rules. Troops not in ambush may of course be seen if passed over at High. Comment: Flyers are fast but not easily drilled, and may be subject to wind and weather and natural caution in order to reconnoiter risky terrain.

4. KEY CONCEPT DEFINITIONS:

ALTITUDE: Flyers are either High or Low. If Low they may also be Grounded. Puffs of cotton are one way to indicate a Flyer BG is High, though adjustable elevated stands used for plane miniatures are preferable. A distinctive Grounded marker is also useful. In order to not adversely affect other game mechanics, Flyers use all normal visibility rules, except for the special rule for Ambushes above.

“GROUNDED” means Flyers who wish to be eligible to shoot (this intention is declared only when Grounded status would become relevant) or have shot in this turn, or who were acting as part of a battle line this turn, in edge contact with enemy on the ground, in an enemy Restricted Area, are Fragmented while Low, or Low in BUA or any Difficult terrain with trees. They may also be Grounded by weather or magic under scenario Mods. Note that overlap alone does not make them Grounded. The effect of being Grounded is that Flyers always require a CMT to Take Flight, including as part of Evades starting while Grounded. In case of conflict, the effects of being Grounded supercede those of being Low. Comment: Grounded represents being committed voluntarily or otherwise to ground action for a time, which might include drawing or changing weapons, resting temporarily, forming up for an attack, exiting aerial craft, dismounting, or fluttering around in confusion, as the case may be.

5. INTERPENETRATION:

5.1 High Flyers may pass over BGs on the ground or Low and any below pass under High Flyers. If troops are in the way on the table, mark the position of the front left corner of the Flyer in some way and place the Flyers where there is room in the exact formation and direction represented. If possible, place them directly behind or ahead of the final position so the position is most clear.

5.2 Low Flyers [NEED PLAYTESTING] use LF interpenetration rules and may be placed beyond friends far enough to accommodate their base depth, except that if Grounded they are treated as LH. While interpenetrating, both BGs are Disordered. Comment: LF treatment compromises between very restrictive interpenetration and entirely free interpenetration. Very restrictive interpenetration would make it hard to coordinate with ground troops and join in overlaps as intended. Allowing troops to interpenetrate Flyers freely would encourage their use as a screen rather than with some regard for clear space. In a different Mod with Grounded aerials having the attributes of normal troop types, they would use the characteristics of their troop type.

6. BASIC MOVEMENT:

6.1 High Flyers move up to LH speed ignoring terrain if they Take Flight or Land in that Manoeuvre Phase, otherwise up to double that speed. No Second Moves if High.

6.2 Low Flyers move as LH and ignore terrain other than trees or Impassable, or effects of being in a battle line. Comment: This would differ greatly and could become quite complex if flight was treated as an ability of normal troop types.

6.3 CMTs: Flyers are treated as Drilled rather than Skirmishers for CMT table and tests, except that the only Turn they can make is a 180 as described under Special Flyer Moves below.

6.4 Battle Line: Flyers in a battle line with non-Flyers are treated as Undrilled due to the greater difficulties of coordination with ground troops.

6.5 Low Overlap: Flyers may enter overlap positions where a friendly overlap does not currently exist even if in doing so they are in front edge contact with enemy land troops to their front which are themselves counting as an overlap, and enemy may if they choose enter such position for overlap facing Flyers without charging (although the Flyers may opt to turn it into a Melee as described below in 8.3 and the opposing troops may later choose to charge the Flyers). Comment: Such front-edge-contact overlap is basically both opponents ignoring each other and engaging the troops being overlapped because of the difficulty of engaging the Flyers, although the ground troops may decide to chase the Flyers away. Flyers are happiest in safe overlap positions and these rules seek to accommodate these. Alternatively, 6.5 and related parts of 8.3 could be ignored if desired.

6.6 Restricted Area: Flyers exert no Restricted Areas. They are subject to Restricted Areas of non-Skirmishers when Grounded or moving to be grounded. Note that if in a Restricted Area they may Take Flight on a CMT but comply with the Restricted Area rules (they may, for example, climb to altitude where they remain in front of the enemy but are out of the Restricted Area). Comment: Since Flyers are an omnipresent threat when anywhere in the vicinity, they impose no particular restrictions. Should test and see if not being subject to Restricted Areas when Low but not grounded makes them too slippery.

6.7 Terrain Effects: Flyers may freely fly High over but not voluntarily Ground in wooded terrain (which includes forests, orchards, and plantations) or a gully or BUA unless evading. They may fly and end their move over impassable water features. Comment: This is validated by HOTT and is a balancing consideration with respect to the safety of camps from Flyers.

7. SPECIAL FLYER MOVES:

7.1 Take Flight: It can occur in Manoeuvre or as part of an Evade, Break Off, or Rout. To Take Flight requires a CMT if Grounded. After passing any required CMT, declare if the Flyer is ending High or Low. Upon a Route, Flyers automatically Take Flight to High and Rout at High. Comment: A CMT is sometimes required as it seems excessive to prevent Grounded Flyers from Taking Flight, but also to allow them to do so freely.

7.2 Climb or Dive: Flyers may either climb to High or dive to Low as part of a move in the air, including Taking Flight.

7.3 180 Climb: Whether in the air or Grounded, upon passing a CMT Flyers may turn 180 and move directly forward ending at High. This includes Taking Flight when Grounded, including as part of an Evade or Break Off. 180 Climbs are measured from the front of the original position directly back to the new front.

7.4 180 Dive: Requires CMT and can’t be done as part of a Charge. From High, advance their BG depth directly forward and turn the BG around by 180 degrees at Low, or Grounded.

8. COMBAT:

8.1 Charge and Edge Contact: Flyers must roll CMT to charge enemy, except against an enemy rear or against Skirmishers or Flyers. While Flyers can engage other Flyers and ground units normally, Flyers can be charged only while Grounded or in non-Grounded overlap. Comment: Designers may vary the aggressiveness of particular Flyers, but generally the intention is to create uncertainty in launching attacks that are not safe.

8.2 No Flank and Rear Charge Cohesion Loss: Flyers do not inflict cohesion loss for flank or rear charges unless specified in the list. Comment: Allowing Flyers generally to knock down cohesion would make them overly powerful. This rule also avoids the need to make explicit provision for formations and tactics that would be evolved to face a rank or file of troops against incoming Flyers. Flyers do get positive POAs and do force enemy to fight in 2 directions. A specific MOD changing this for Dragons or the like would make sense.

8.3 Entering Combat:
A Flyer in Low Overlap may choose to initiate front edge close combat against the facing enemy in the Impact Phase, which counts as a charge and thus may require a CMT. It may also decide close combat will occur at the moment when the enemy first moves into that position, in which case there is no Impact but they thereafter fight in Melee. This is the only situation in which Impact is skipped, but the enemy if eligible may Evade but is likely to be caught due to the greater movement distance of the Flyers.

8.4 Terrain Contact Restrictions: Flyers may not move into edge contact with troops or Camps where this would involve entering or conforming into BUAs, Woods, Orchards, Plantations or Fortified Camps. To sack an Unfortified Camp they must reduce it as if Fortified. Comment: The non-backstory reason for this is to make it less easy to pick off Camps, and enable Flyers to avoid terrain they would not wish to enter.

8.5 Evade: Flyers may choose to Evade charges by Flyers or other troops unless in edge close combat with enemy other than as an overlap, and they MUST Evade if possible when charged by non-Skirmishers unless they pass CMT to receive the charge. An exception is that Flyers in trees or BUAs must CMT in order to Evade. Comment: An idea regarding Flyers being disorganized by an Evade was rejected for simplicity.

8.6 Special Evade: This applies to Grounded Flyers not in edge close combat with enemy other than as an overlap who would force a friendly Evade to shift, or prevent it from shifting or continuing the Evade without bursting through a friendly BG. They may choose to CMT at that moment in order to allow themselves immediately Evade in the same direction as and ahead of the evader before the evader continues its Evade move. If they fail the CMT everything proceeds as it otherwise would.

9. CLOSE COMBAT:
 Flyers reduce dice the same way as LH do. Flyers may fight 2 ranks deep in Melee.
 Any bases with shooting capability get a +1 POA in close combat against Flyers.
 Flyers count an Uphill POA at Impact if their final net POA would otherwise be negative.
 Flyers may receive a POA benefit from defending field fortifications in close combat.
 Flyers without qualifying flank or rear charges that do contact an edge or corner other than the front edge are re-placed to the front of the target if there is room, otherwise placed in overlap on the nearest available side, otherwise left in place in edge contact but count as fighting in frontal contact and are moved as above as soon as possible (target may but need not turn to face, and does not count in 2 directions for bases turned to face such Flyers).

10. SHOOTING:
10.1 Flyers shoot and are shot at as if LH.
 Flyers at High may only be shot at from High. Magic may be used against them.
 -1 POA suffered if shooting at Flyers unless the Flyers are Grounded.
Comment: Dropped changes for range and dice of rear rank shooters based on Flyer position as unnecessary complexity.

10.2 Opportunity Shooting at Moving Flyers: If an enemy Low Flyer while moving in the Manoeuvre Phase moves through a point which is in shooting range and arc of an enemy BG and where it would be the priority target, then that enemy BG can declare opportunity shooting against the Flyer, resolved immediately. That BG may not shoot in the following Shooting Phase. Opportunity shooting hits from multiple BGs against the same Flyer BG are combined for results and the CT is rolled during the Manoeuvre Phase at the end of Flyer movement .

11. JOINT ACTION:

11.1 Voluntary Break Off: Except against Flyers or any BG with a Flyer Trap, a Flyer BG fighting enemy frontally can seek to voluntarily break off to their own rear in the break off phase upon passing a CMT, which MUST be declared and rolled at the beginning of the Phase before other break offs are determined, though actual order of break offs remains determined by the active player. Comment: Note that this means surviving Flyers can break off at will from frontal combat to try something else.

11.2 Flyover Break Off: Flyers that are involuntarily breaking off may break off normally or, if the path beyond the target is entirely clear of enemy or their restricted areas, they may flyover break off by continuing a full move directly forward over and past the close combat target. Comment: This represents a sweeping flyover attack against steady infantry and a short flight on to regroup. They will thereafter need to turn around to attack the BG again and cannot both turn and charge from Low.

11.3 Blocking: Low or Grounded Flyers can block enemy Break Offs, Routs, and Evades, except that Flyers not in combat and blocking non-Skrimisher enemy Break Off must pass a CMT to not Evade away from the troops breaking off.

11.4 Commanders: Commanders on the ground only affect Low Flyers that are Low and may join or influence a Flyer BG only when it is Low (including Grounded). Since routed Flyers climb High they can’t be rallied by a non-Flyer Commander. Comment: This Mod does not yet provide for Flyer commanders on the rationale that in battle they would remain in sight near the action and not impair morale by taking flight high above unless leading High Flyers. A Mod for Flyer Commanders might allow them to Take Flight if caught alone out of range of friends.

12. COHESION TESTS:
Flyers do not threaten flanks or rears. Comment: Flyers don’t have to work much to get into a flank or rear position to enemy so inflicting Threatened Flank is too easy. They are an omnipresent nuisance threat so there is no particular bonus for orientation. They may affect the enemy commander’s tactics, but to have a direct effect must fight, which is easy for them to do.

13. POINTS COST: Cost is double that of LH with same attributes, plus an extra 2 points per base. Comment: A fair price is probably between double and triple normal cost. The premium is not for deadly combat power, but manoeuvrability and utility, and a preference that any mispricing be on the side of overpricing rather than a underpricing. The impact of mispricing should not be serious if there are few Flyers.

This file includes ideas and reflects comments from people in the Yahoo FOG_Fantasy Group including William Butler, saint sicarii and ramiro llovera. Be assured any really bad ideas must be mine (MikeK).


======================================
ADDITIONAL IDEAS:
 POAs:
- Flyers do not count Impact POA for Mounted against medium or light foot.
- Flyers count Uphill POA in Impact against Arty or non-missile ground troop
- Flyer in close combat vs. shooters even on a flank/rear charge have maximum net +1 POA.
 Fragmented flyers automatically take flight Low and retire toward the board edge? Too survivable?
 Dismounting Flyers: Riders leave their flying mounts behind and fight as ground troops of an appropriate type as defined by the Mod.
 Small or very small creatures which may be difficult to hit or kill, ignore armour when they attack, but be vulnerable to flame, smoke, lotions, distraction or fear. In delivering their attacks they may also die, so that they are expended over time or as they inflict hits on the enemy.
 Larger BGs of man to horse-sized creatures, maybe including horse and rider, with fighting styles and classifications like normal troops.
 Airships: Vehicles and similar sized creatures used for transporting troops or characters.
Speed and offensive or defensive abilities should be defined in the AddOn. Attributes of Battle Wagons but with greater speed are a suggested starting point for vehicles.
 SpellCasting and Magic Effects: As described in an applicable Magic Mod.
 Bombing: BG charge moves to contact. Fights in the same manner as an Expendable (Scythed Chariot) for Impact Then, win or lose, moves directly to one move away from the Camp in the manoeuvre phase. May reload later by spending a joint action phase in contact with the Camp. Any shooters not in close combat position that are in effective range of the bombing BG, allowing LOS through troops, get to add to support shooting at the bomber. Comment: This can be based on a concept that creatures or vehicles have a harder time hovering than flying due to the need for lift, so an attack is basically a fly-by to drop something on the target, briefly touch down, or use weapons or talons or intimidation in a sweeping pass to cause loss or disruption.
 Flying Expendables.
 Could add additional mods allowing various forms of aerial attacks from Low or High level and which may be accomplished by a flyover –physical attack using combat dice in Shooting or an Impact or Melee Phase, psychological/fear attack with a chance of forcing a CT or counting a negative modifier on a CT, disordering effect (bases contacted, or in one base width, or perhaps flown over). The targets might be able to opportunity shoot in response.
 Wind direction and weather rules.

[zellak]

So, a 4 bases BG of giant eagles.

Average, unprotected, LH, no capabilities, camelry.

Would be 12 points a base, so 48 points for the BG. (5pts x 2 = 10 ,+2pts for camelry.)

I will try this out next time i play, but i doubt if i will remember all the rule changes.

Not getting the "8.2 No flank and rear charge cohesion loss" really seems a bit harsh considering the lack of POAs and combat dice for an unprotected LH BG with no capabilities.

I like the " 11.2 Flyover Break off ", in the JAP.

Perhaps it would be easier to always say that flyers cannot hover or turn 90 or 180 degrees and always move forward when flying. So they must wheel to turn. Unless they land of course.

Have you playtested this mod ?

[SirGarnet]

So, a 4 bases BG of giant eagles.
Average, unprotected, LH, no capabilities, camelry.
Would be 12 points a base, so 48 points for the BG. (5pts x 2 = 10 ,+2pts for camelry.)

I hesitate to propose points at all, but I think it's in the ball park. This is the next modest step up from just representing aerials as LH under the standard rules. Keeping their numbers and overall impact on the battle small should mean that initial points errors are unlikely to unbalance a particular game.

I work out the cost as (5 for unprotected LH + 2 for Camelry +2 for Flyer)x2 = 18 pts per base, 36 pts for a BG of 2 bases - I thought about 4 bases but decided 2 works better for this mod.

Besides being very expensive, 4 bases seemed wrong in terms of how they would be used . If Elephants in their 2-base BGs are glass cannons, these 2-base Flyers are glass daggers - they are fragile, have utility value in a number of ways, but in combat you need to stab carefully in just the right spot or break them without a useful result. Flyers will add 1 or sometimes 2 dice to a combat situation, but their primary value is not their direct combat power but their general utility benefits and ability to get in positions that hurt the enemy (usually behind them).

For example, charge the rear of an 2-wide Pike BG that is simultaneously charged from the front. By turning their back rank the Pikes lose their 4th rank POA and in Melee are fighting in 2 directions - down two POAs! There is a some risk for the Flyers of losing a base and autobreaking, but it can get nasty for the Pikes.

I will try this out next time i play, but i doubt if i will remember all the rule changes.

Indeed - worse than Battle Wagons! However, Flyers are even more complicated. I decided I would try to address all the rules areas I could think of that would be affected by Flyers - I expect some of the rules are more trouble than they are worth, some things are missing, and there are more elegantly simple ideas out there. I included the comments to make it clear where it was coming from and this may help thinking on other ideas for aerials.

Not getting the "8.2 No flank and rear charge cohesion loss" really seems a bit harsh considering the lack of POAs and combat dice for an unprotected LH BG with no capabilities.

But consider the deadly effect on the Pikes mentioned above. Also, as mentioned in the collected design notes sticky, the FoG principle is that you need to work to get a flank to earn the cohesion loss reward. Flyers are like Skirmishers in that it's easy to get on the flank of heavier troops.

Probably a cohesion loss effect would be appropriate for Great Dragons (aka flying fire breathing armoured Elephants) but they would cost a Dwarven hoard's worth of army points and balancing rules for them is further work once some basic approach to flying is worked out.

I like the " 11.2 Flyover Break off ", in the JAP.

Perhaps it would be easier to always say that flyers cannot hover or turn 90 or 180 degrees and always move forward when flying. So they must wheel to turn. Unless they land of course.

The flyover seemed appropriate as it is the Flyers fighting on their way to the other side of the enemy BG.

Right now, Flyers can't turn 90 or 180 except for a 180 climb from low to high or a 180 dive from high to low (not part of a charge). On reflection, Maybe "Climb" should be "Soar" and "Dive" should be "Swoop"? Maybe you are right that it should be even more restrictive - movement restrictions help keep consistent with the feel of the game by allowing some predictability as to what the already manoeuvrable Flyers can do in the next turn or two, but too many restrictions and the Flyers feel needlessly constrained.

Have you playtested this mod ?

On-table tactical drill, but not against a live and wily opponent with Flyers on both sides.

I've not tested Flyer vs. Flyer manoeuvre and combat since it's action near the ground that is the interesting and tricky part. I think there are a variety of air-air combat mechanisms that can work. I did want to provide some benefit to positional advantage behind the enemy.

I'd be pleased to hear of how it works in your experience.

[zellak]

Just noticed something, LH are skirmishers so don't cause a cohesion step loss when charging flank or rear of non-skirmishers. Rulebook page 56, bulletpoint 5.

So if the giant eagles are LH that fits in okay with the guidelines anyway.

I will try them out, using the "wheeling turns "only to see how constraining it is.

We use 5" frontage for our bases (to get the miniatures to fit), and use a 2" to a MU. So thats a 14" movement for LH.

And i was going to use them in a 4 base BG only because i just bought four on e-bay.
And IMHO a 2 base LH BG would be pretty ineffective.

[zellak]

http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/Himg183/s ... &ysize=480



A picture showing base sizes to accomodate larger miniatures.


http://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg299/s ... &ysize=480


Romans versus Beastmen.

[SirGarnet]

Quite a large floor space you have!

Please let me know how it turns out. As you are doing 4s, if you have time give a thought to how they would be different in 2s. I think Flyers in 2s will be effective when their uses are learned, and that 4s may have too much of an impact, but play is the test.

Thanks,

Mike

[zellak]

Quite a large floor space you have!

We were using three 6' x2' tables, two with long edges touching and the third on the end, with long edge touching the short ends of the first two.

Thats why we needed two cloths to cover the tables, normally one will cover a 6' x 4' playing area.

The base sizes dictate the playing area.

I will start a new thread.

[stenic]

Some interesting ideas and I've yet to try any and even digest the full post. But, from my feeling I'd opted for something along the lines of HOTT as regards aerials. DBF Here Be Dragons perhaps tried too hard to add the nice chrome but I do think there should be simplicity whilst keeping a variation between flocks of bats, swarms etc... and large aerial creature such as Dragons... and then mechanical flying machines.

I'd go with a HOTT fantasy aerial type and then align such a class as close to possible with a FOG troop type as you have done when comparing to light horse.

So
Flyers (including gryocopters, eagles, bats etc...) - LH
Larger aerials - Dragons, winged demons, super large eagles that save Gandalf etc.. Elephants
Airboats - Warwagons, artillery & Chariots.

Flyers agreed as unprotected but Large aerials & airboats should have no armour rating and negate the enemy armour POA as do elephants and chariots etc...

Flyers probably do not need a POA but should have a disorder effect due to flapping arround and causing confusion. At most I'd say they may negate certain melee POAs but as alreayd stated, their 'skill' is in harassment rather than full on frontal attack.

Large aerials should get a double impact POA in the open but not cause disorder as whilst the enemy may be frightened they are not having things whipping around their heads. Negate enemy melee POAs and have 1 of their own.

Airboats should be trated as a Light Artillery


After that tag on the flying rules. I like the idea of 2 states;, high or low. It keeps it simple. i'd not allow interpenetration just to keep it simple, wit hthe exception that all aerials could pass over ground troop unless the aerials are in combat (low or high) and all ground can pass under aerials unless the aerials are in combat.

I'd suggest aerials would be a tad faster than the related ground type, so flyers 8MU, large Aerials, 5MU and Airboats 4MU. I would suggest they should all be undrilled rather than drilled. Most rulesets make it harder to control aerial troops, no radios

I don't think any aerials and ground troops should form battleline together, but aerials could with each other.

Only airboats should really shoot. Flyers and large aerials just use beak and claw etc... Dropping stones is probably just too organised for them. Breath weapons etc... should just be built in to the POAs to keep it simple.

As for JAPs and CT and CMTS, all should be the same to keep the changes to a minimum. Happy for flyers not to cause a cohesion level drop if hitting a flank or rear as they already will disorder, but I think large aerials and airboats should.

Anyway, they are some ideas after reading through the list above.I do think the key thing is to keep it simple rather than add too many special rules.

Steve P

[zellak]

Having tested using giant eagles only once, I'm pretty sure triple points cost for a BG of 4 average Unprotected LH, is wrong. Even if they can fly.

Something that i noticed in playtesting, when they rout there is no way of rallying them as Generals cannot join them .

Unless of course the general can fly ! Which she couldn't (even though she had wings)

As they could not hover, i used a minimum move distance of 3 MU on the day.

Next time I will go with Mike K's suggestion cost + 2 camelry + 2 for flying , doubled.

But add riders with bow.

So... ave,undrilled, Unpro, LH , bowmen is 8 points +2(camelry)+2(flying) = 12 x2 =24 points a base

A 4 base BG coming in at 96 points.

Should be interesting to see how i muck this up....

........................zellak.

[zellak]

Tried this out yesterday, 96 points for 4 base flying LH with bow.

i will do a full AAR when i get the photos.

Meantime, the Eagles started the battle on the extreme left wing, they flew across an enemy cavalry bow armed BG and traded shots,they then headed for the enemy baseline and wheeled right towards the enemies centre.

There they met a BG of foot bowmen , ineffectively traded shots and flew over them towards the enemy left wing, they fired on a BG of routing enemy spearmen , at game end.

The "wheeling only" rule (with a minimum movement of 3 MU) is very constraining, i like it, added to the fact that Flyers that drop cohesion levels need to be rallied or bolstered by flying Generals is also a major drawback.

i still think the points are to high and next time will not add the "+2 for flyers", the double points cost would seem to cover the advantage of flight. Given of course they "wheel only".