Fall Weiss Scenario

[Yogi the Great]

I've mentioned (complained) about the Loraine Scenario power and number of the Axis and their ability to make major offensive actions.

Now another - if this is supposed to have any reality I was sure surprised to see what a massive and strong air power Poland has - devastating air attacks against my poor and puny by comparison German air power. Also surprising is the offensive power and size of the polish army.

Once again maybe I'm missing something but I find myself playing more and more random scenarios even with their shortcoming instead of historic ones just to try and have some balance. Since I have the Field Marshall edition I'm also hoping those new DLC's will be much better and realistic than the scenarios (even some in the campaigns) then what is presently available.

I really like the game but hope for better scenarios and campaign material in the future.

[MickMannock]

I've mentioned (complained) about the Loraine Scenario power and number of the Axis and their ability to make major offensive actions.

Now another - if this is supposed to have any reality I was sure surprised to see what a massive and strong air power Poland has - devastating air attacks against my poor and puny by comparison German air power. Also surprising is the offensive power and size of the polish army.

Once again maybe I'm missing something but I find myself playing more and more random scenarios even with their shortcoming instead of historic ones just to try and have some balance. Since I have the Field Marshall edition I'm also hoping those new DLC's will be much better and realistic than the scenarios (even some in the campaigns) then what is presently available.

I really like the game but hope for better scenarios and campaign material in the future.

Finished the scenario myself yesterday, and regarding the Polish airforce I couldn't agree more. It's bloated in my opinion, atleast compared to the size of my own airforce. I had to really go all in on Bf109's to keep the enemy in check. It doesn't help that the 109 in this game doesn't have the same advantage over the other fighters as they did in PG/PC1. It's a grind where you have to allocate atleast 3 fighters for every enemy plane you want to bring down. So initially one will take a lot of casualties from the Polish airforce, but after about turn 15 one ought to have air superirority.

In general I like the scenarios, but the enemy always seem to have an excess of air power, compared to what was available to them in real life. I think it's a weird design choice.

[Yogi the Great]

Thanks for the reply. I started the scenario and after just a few turns in I started over, his time making much more air power in my selection of forces. I was still greatly overpowered and again was having both my air and land units devastated. Add to that, in order to select that extra air power it hurts the land power. I'll probably try again and maybe should go further in but on my last two tries I was already in trouble and don't think there would have been much left of my power if I did go that far.

Just seems a lot of power has been put into the AI side of quite a few of these scenarios beyond what should actually be available.

[SineMora]

Scenarios have to be made so that they provide some form of challenge, and of course a more historical balance between the German and Polish forces would make for a rather one-sided affair. I suppose one of the problems is the freedom given to players when choosing their cores; if you restrict the Polish air force the German player will be able to achieve air supremacy in quick order. Rather than bloat the Polish air force though it might be a better idea to strictly limit the numbers of certain units for the player, the same way a few of the other scenarios do. This would allow for a smaller Polish air force while not making it to easy to gain air supremacy.

[nexusno2000]

I've mentioned (complained) about the Loraine Scenario power and number of the Axis and their ability to make major offensive actions.

Now another - if this is supposed to have any reality I was sure surprised to see what a massive and strong air power Poland has - devastating air attacks against my poor and puny by comparison German air power. Also surprising is the offensive power and size of the polish army.

Once again maybe I'm missing something but I find myself playing more and more random scenarios even with their shortcoming instead of historic ones just to try and have some balance. Since I have the Field Marshall edition I'm also hoping those new DLC's will be much better and realistic than the scenarios (even some in the campaigns) then what is presently available.

I really like the game but hope for better scenarios and campaign material in the future.

For Lorraine you need good tanks, backed by the HA 30 AT gun. Watch the AI bleed to death trying to kill your tanks.

[Hemi]

I've mentioned (complained) about the Loraine Scenario power and number of the Axis and their ability to make major offensive actions.

Now another - if this is supposed to have any reality I was sure surprised to see what a massive and strong air power Poland has - devastating air attacks against my poor and puny by comparison German air power. Also surprising is the offensive power and size of the polish army.

Once again maybe I'm missing something but I find myself playing more and more random scenarios even with their shortcoming instead of historic ones just to try and have some balance. Since I have the Field Marshall edition I'm also hoping those new DLC's will be much better and realistic than the scenarios (even some in the campaigns) then what is presently available.

I really like the game but hope for better scenarios and campaign material in the future.

In the first week of battle after the German invasion of Poland, Poland shot down 105 Luftwaffe airplanes at a loss of only 79. Of the 600 panzers knocked out, the majority were lost to Polish bombers. Poland put up a fight, especially their air force

[panzeh]

The Polish air force in Fall Weiss is initially a bit of a shock but if you work them down, especially after they go out to strike your stuff, you will kill them in a few turns. The 109s will kill the Polish planes pretty quickly, and buying some 110s can be a big help.

The Polish army is something that takes a lot longer to deal with.

[scorehouse]

the 110's r great. they hold their own against fighters, have great range, and do good damage to weakened Tank, artillery and infantry units. the 100's also update frequently with new better versions. also 3 110's for the same prestige as 2 stukas with the ability to hold their own against enemy fighters

[monkspider]

I think these scenarios are designed more from a gameplay perspective more than a historical accuracy perspective. Poland had a pretty killer airforce during the campaign too, and a respectable armored corps to boot! Those 7TP tanks are no joke! I think they didn't want Poland to be a total pushover and the scenario to be a cakewalk. Poland did put up a good fight on many occasions even historically, the Battle of the Bzura for example.

A campaign where you play from the perspective of Poland would make for an interesting DLC some day. It would give them a reason to add some of the prototype Polish armor like the 10TP and 14TP to the game.

[MickMannock]

The Polish air force in Fall Weiss is initially a bit of a shock but if you work them down, especially after they go out to strike your stuff, you will kill them in a few turns. The 109s will kill the Polish planes pretty quickly, and buying some 110s can be a big help.

The Polish army is something that takes a lot longer to deal with.

I disagree that 109's kill the Polish planes quickly. You need 3 109's to bring down 1 enemy airplane. And it is imperative to focus your effort on 1 plane at a time until it goes down. Cause if you only damage it, it will heal up again on the next turn.

And I guess that is the problem. In real life, the Polish airforce couldn't replenish their aircraft losses that easily, as they do now in the game. So yes, there was a big skirmish and both sides lost quite some planes initially, but the Luftwaffe had so many more planes available compared to Poland that Germany won the air war by attrition. Poland had no chance. But that is not the case in the game.

I get that they want to make the scenarios a challange, but it still bugs me that they go out of their way to make the air war completely ahistorical just for the sake of making it challenging. I'd rather see they up the enemy stats on harder difficulty levels, rather than throwing in air units that weren't there to begin with.

[panzeh]

The Polish air force in Fall Weiss is initially a bit of a shock but if you work them down, especially after they go out to strike your stuff, you will kill them in a few turns. The 109s will kill the Polish planes pretty quickly, and buying some 110s can be a big help.

The Polish army is something that takes a lot longer to deal with.

I disagree that 109's kill the Polish planes quickly. You need 3 109's to bring down 1 enemy airplane. And it is imperative to focus your effort on 1 plane at a time until it goes down. Cause if you only damage it, it will heal up again on the next turn.

And I guess that is the problem. In real life, the Polish airforce couldn't replenish their aircraft losses that easily, as they do now in the game. So yes, there was a big skirmish and both sides lost quite some planes initially, but the Luftwaffe had so many more planes available compared to Poland that Germany won the air war by attrition. Poland had no chance. But that is not the case in the game.

I get that they want to make the scenarios a challange, but it still bugs me that they go out of their way to make the air war completely ahistorical just for the sake of making it challenging. I'd rather see they up the enemy stats on harder difficulty levels, rather than throwing in air units that weren't there to begin with.

Yes, if you want to one-round a P.11, you will have to use 3 planes. Remember, two planes will generally take it down to 1-2 strength, especially if you attack one closer to your airfields. If the AI decides to waste a turn trying to replace it it will go back up to 6-7 strength and you can finish it with 2 planes with almost no losses. You will generally get better results if you attack the P.11s when they go out to attack your bombers or artillery- the AI will also sometimes attack your aircraft and take strength losses.

Poland's air force has no chance in the scenario. I don't know how you're having trouble with the polish aircraft other than that you don't want to buy fighters, you just want your ME109s to be insane like they were in PC1. If the Polish Air Force is still in existence after turn 6 or so, you probably didn't buy enough fighters at the beginning or enough 110s(they're handy for finishing off bombers and low strength P.11s). I think the Polish air force being gone after turn 6 is pretty reasonable- what you want would be the Polish airforce gone in 2-3 turns and I think that's even more absurd.

There are 13 polish aircraft in the scenario. The only reason the POlish airforce should last 15 turns is because you as a player chose not to focus on dealing with the Polish airforce by not purchasing enough additional fighters at the start. Even a modest purchase of 3-4 and focusing on putting them on the frontmost airfields should result in the Polish airforce gone by turn 6-7. This is reasonable historically. The AI does not always reinforce damaged aircraft and it will often send them after your own, speeding up the process. Overrunning an airfield will make the planes based there unable to take replacements or do anything for the turn while giving your own planes a chance to rebase and get closer.

[MickMannock]

I think you just want a trivial polish air force. Yes, if you want to one-round a P.11, you will have to use 3 planes. Remember, two planes will generally take it down to 1-2 strength, especially if you attack one closer to your airfields. If the AI decides to waste a turn trying to replace it it will go back up to 6-7 strength and you can finish it with 2 planes with almost no losses. You will generally get better results if you attack the P.11s when they go out to attack your bombers or artillery- the AI will also sometimes attack your aircraft and take strength losses.

Poland's air force has no chance in the scenario. I don't know how you're having trouble with the polish aircraft other than that you don't want to buy fighters, you just want your ME109s to be insane like they were in PC1. If the Polish Air Force is still in existence after turn 6 or so, you probably didn't buy enough fighters at the beginning or enough 110s(they're handy for finishing off bombers and low strength P.11s). I think the Polish air force being gone after turn 6 is pretty reasonable- what you want would be the Polish airforce gone in 2-3 turns and I think that's even more absurd.

Nope, you've got it all wrong.

I'm annoyed with bloated airforces in general. In Lorraine and Gothic line scenarios, the Germans have way more aircraft available than they historically did. I understand that it's probably done so to give the player a bigger challenge, but I'd rather see other types of challenges (ie on higher difficulty the enemy have increased stats of varying kind).

Regarding Fall Weiss, well you are probably a much more skilled player than I am, but the Polish airforce wasn't gone until turn 15 when I played the scenario. I probably could have destroyed them a few turns earlier if I had transfered my fighter planes around a bit more efficiently. I had a weaker fighter force in the south and since I didn't always get control of a new airfield fast enough, I sometimes couldn't reach the enemy planes in great enough numbers as they attacked my ground forces.

But you are quite right in the sense that there is no given amount of time it should take to bring down an enemy fighter. One could always argue (and I guess the developer did so) that bringing down a Bristol Blenheim with 2 Bf109's in PG/PC1 was too fast/simple and they slowed that process down this time around in that instead it takes 3 Bf109's (or 2 Bf109 + 1 Bf110). And it's perfectly fine saying that this is the new deal of PC2 and it's a consistent design choice to nerf the Bf109E. I just find that it's too far astray from the original concept of the Panzer General-series (I include PC1 and 2 in that series). Besides, the Germans had clear air superiority in 1939/40 but the developers seemingly have felt a need to make a game balanced where opposing forces like Poland and France have an even playingfield in every aspect. It feels catered to the MP crowd to be quite honest.

[panzeh]

Besides, the Germans had clear air superiority in 1939/40 but the developers seemingly have felt a need to make a game balanced where opposing forces like Poland and France have an even playingfield in every aspect. It feels catered to the MP crowd to be quite honest.

It's not really an even playing field, though- if it was, they would have a chance to actually win the air war. The P.11s can't really dent your ME109s, nor can the MS406s and gladiators, especially if you use mass attack effectively. There's zero chance that Poland is going to win the air war in Fall Weiss, even if you never buy a single extra fighter- it'll just mean the Polish air force will be an annoyance if you choose deliberately to let them exist for longer in exchange for something else.

The 109 is better than anything you face except the spitfire in the '39-40 scenarios.

I do think the German airforce has a big presence in Lorraine but that's part of the challenge of the scenario and you're allowed to buy fighters as the US player to deal with them.

[MickMannock]

It's not really an even playing field, though- if it was, they would have a chance to actually win the air war. The P.11s can't really dent your ME109s, nor can the MS406s and gladiators, especially if you use mass attack effectively. There's zero chance that Poland is going to win the air war in Fall Weiss, even if you never buy a single extra fighter- it'll just mean the Polish air force will be an annoyance if you choose deliberately to let them exist for longer in exchange for something else.

The even playing field was in regards to the comparative strengths and weaknesses in a MP sense. It's as if the Polish player (in this case) shouldn't feel he's fighting a lost cause before the scenario has even started.

In regards to the Fall Weiss scenario, I wouldn't say reaching air superiority until turn 15 (of 30) is balanced on the principle of how it was in reality. But hey, it's probably just me who sucks ass playing the game.

The 109 is better than anything you face except the spitfire in the '39-40 scenarios.

I've never clamied that the 109 is worse than any other plane (except the Spitfire) in the game. It's the question of its relative superiority over other fighters that we disagree upon.

I do think the German airforce has a big presence in Lorraine but that's part of the challenge of the scenario and you're allowed to buy fighters as the US player to deal with them.

And that is exactly my point and what I find annoying. They throw in airplanes that never should have been there in the first place. The Lorraine scenario takes place during a time when the Luftwaffe was more or less thoroughly beaten. In that scenario there should be at most one German airplane, and preferably none at all. To up the challenge by throwing in a bunch of airplanes that never were there is ahistorical and lazy. There are other better ways to make it challenging in my opinion.

[Yogi the Great]

Well I'm now finishing turn 12 of a new game. Main difference I put a lot into my fighters, maybe too much (15 fighters. I actually got a few less tactical bombers than my previous try. So the result has been that I was able to take on the Polish Air and prevail much more rapidly.

Interesting conversation you all have been having about this. For me the problem was more the number and strength of the Polish bombing. They would hit my tanks very effectively taking 3 and more strength points often. So I used the fighters more often to attack the bombers than to attack their fighters. I di do that as well of course. To take out a full strength bomber usually took at least 3 and sometimes even 4 fighter attacks. Same on their fighters. So I don't agree that their planes can easily be taken out.

The AI used their fighters well, they would normally go after my tactical bombers left hanging out there after they attacked on my turn.

I also have found the rain turns can complicate things a bit on the air war.

Anyway looks like by about turn 10 because of the heavy investment in fighters they are down to little air power unless they have some hiding out.

Ground war still going strong, even on turn 12 they are still attacking me and they have conducted some impressive offensive operations. My losses have been higher than I would have expected for this scenario. Seems a bit unreal to be honest. Although my offensive struggled many places from turn 10 to 12 things finally began to open up for me. Because of my experience in a few other scenarios I still worry that suddenly I'll be hit with a major tank offensive as I make the mistake of approaching one of their victory hexes I guess time will tell. At least I'm still in the fight on turn 12.

[panzeh]

The Germans took significantly higher casualties than they were expecting in Poland for several reasons.

[Nalikill]

The Germans took significantly higher casualties than they were expecting in Poland for several reasons.

I think this is a point that goes un-noticed for a lot of people: There were a lot of lessons learned in Fall Weiss, and if not for the soviets, the Poles would've inflicted significantly more losses on the germans. I don't think it goes too far to say that lessons learned in Fall Weiss was a huge factor in the subsequent success of Fall Gelb.

[Snake97644]

The Germans took significantly higher casualties than they were expecting in Poland for several reasons.

I think this is a point that goes un-noticed for a lot of people: There were a lot of lessons learned in Fall Weiss, and if not for the soviets, the Poles would've inflicted significantly more losses on the germans. I don't think it goes too far to say that lessons learned in Fall Weiss was a huge factor in the subsequent success of Fall Gelb.

Agree, the Poles could fight, people over look the fact that they defeated the Soviets in the '20s. One of those forgotten wars, that were quite impactful.

[Hemi]

Okay, so this is completely off topic, but I have a friend from childhood whose dad lived in Poland in 1939. The Germans overran his town, and then by treaty it was given to the Soviets. He spoke several languages, so the Soviets conscripted him to be a spy.

He got off a refugee ship at Ellis Island, walked up to the agent, put up his hands and said "you caught me, I'm a spy". The whole thing was a ruse to escape Europe. Not knowing what to do with him, they put him in the army so they could keep an eye on him, and did what you did with a soldier fluent in six languages - they taught him to drive a bulldozer. And he drove a bulldozer all war with a Tommy gun on his lap. First stop Guadalcanal. Then Tarawa, Anzio, and Normandy. Wherever there was a landing that needed engineers. His unit mutinied successfully in Italy but that's a story for a different day.

All this talk of Fall Weiss made me think of the one person I knew who was there. Sorry that it's not game related.

I do think engineers are tougher than in the game, but it's a game, add salt.

[Turboheizer]

This is a game, not history, and the scenario notes make it explicit that the developers intended to present Fall Weiß on a heretofore unseen level of complexity. The map is much bigger than any other I have played so far on the standard campaign path (I'm in front of Moscow now), and the computer enemy commands more units. Nevertheless, the initial strength of the Polish air force will be a surprise for most players. I wonder why no one mentioned the numerous armored trains, another major nuisance during the first turns. The key to victory is a timely investment into the right weapons. At the beginning, there will be many slots left empty because of lacking resources, but the German player grows stronger and richer with every conquered objective. A strong fighter force will eventually lead to the necessary air supremacy, although some Messerschmitts may later become unemployed. Additional Pioniere, Panzer and artillery units will also be very useful. While the Czech tanks and the few Panzer III are effective against hard targets, the automatic weapons of the Panzer II and the Panzerspähwagen are more effective against soft ones. The computer will start local counter attacks using tanks or cavalry, but fortunately he is unable to formulate an overall strategy and allows his units to be finished off piece by piece. I managed to reach the last objective during the last turn, and it was a close call, but the clock was a harder opponent than the computer enemy. I guess I lost no more than five units, but I was able to buy additional ones, especially during the last phase of the game. All in all, this was indeed the most challenging map so far, but this is just the way it was intended.