Manual for Veterans?

[DocTsiolkovski]

Dear fellow players,

having enjoyed PG1, PG2, PzC1 for hundreds if not thousands of hours (and having tried even to play PG3Assault/ScoEarth...), I'm now struggling with some basic concepts in PzC2. I wonder if there is some kind of advanced manual for vetererans?

I just finished Norway, and wonder that I'm still totally unclear about some features.

(1) Excessive losses on defence
I have Str 15 Inf with 1 star on a hill, backed by a Str 10 15cm sFH. A 14 Str Norwegian Mountain Inf moves to the mountain tile next to it and attacks. Result: -7 for both. In PzC1, this would have benn more like 7 vs 2 to my favour. Infantry attacks against tanks and recon in the open also deal a lot of damage. What's the concept behind? How are you supposed to keep you units healthy?

(2) Benefits of "smaller" units
The prime example in PzC1 is the half-priced (with transport) 10.5cm FH with its higher RoF compared to the 15cm sHF. Is there any reason to not deploy 15cm with Halftracks instead of 10.5 with Trucks now, except for the slots?

(3) Returning aircraft
Is there any way to predict or influence to which tile next to the airbase a plane will return? For Norway (Oslo), this is crucial since you want your Fighters endend on the Northermost tiles, so that they can attack the Norwegian ones.

(4) Recon planes
Are they really worth the slot regarding accuracy (not scouting), and if yes - more than one?

(5) How to use destroyers?
Naval is clear, but do they help in any way for land warfare? Historically, destroyers did a lot of precisement shelving during landing operations, and did so in any previous incarnation

Thanks a lot for any direct advice, and a link to a manual that focuses on such questions, not basic concepts of the whole series like terrain or unit type, or the new features.
Doc T

[Horseman]

Dear fellow players,

having enjoyed PG1, PG2, PzC1 for hundreds if not thousands of hours (and having tried even to play PG3Assault/ScoEarth...), I'm now struggling with some basic concepts in PzC2. I wonder if there is some kind of advanced manual for vetererans?

I just finished Norway, and wonder that I'm still totally unclear about some features.

(1) Excessive losses on defence
I have Str 15 Inf with 1 star on a hill, backed by a Str 10 15cm sFH. A 14 Str Norwegian Mountain Inf moves to the mountain tile next to it and attacks. Result: -7 for both. In PzC1, this would have benn more like 7 vs 2 to my favour. Infantry attacks against tanks and recon in the open also deal a lot of damage. What's the concept behind? How are you supposed to keep you units healthy?

(2) Benefits of "smaller" units
The prime example in PzC1 is the half-priced (with transport) 10.5cm FH with its higher RoF compared to the 15cm sHF. Is there any reason to not deploy 15cm with Halftracks instead of 10.5 with Trucks now, except for the slots?

(3) Returning aircraft
Is there any way to predict or influence to which tile next to the airbase a plane will return? For Norway (Oslo), this is crucial since you want your Fighters endend on the Northermost tiles, so that they can attack the Norwegian ones.

(4) Recon planes
Are they really worth the slot regarding accuracy (not scouting), and if yes - more than one?

(5) How to use destroyers?
Naval is clear, but do they help in any way for land warfare? Historically, destroyers did a lot of precisement shelving during landing operations, and did so in any previous incarnation

Thanks a lot for any direct advice, and a link to a manual that focuses on such questions, not basic concepts of the whole series like terrain or unit type, or the new features.
Doc T

I'll try and answer some of your points....

1) infantry fighting in close terrain is pretty deadly all round. In this case the mountain infantry also get a big boost to stats due to fighting in hills/mountains. You were pretty well outclassed here. If it had been normal infantry you'd probably have seen results closer to what You expected.

2) just slots....Oh and smaller pieces tend to support fire against did targets whilst heavier pieces tend to support against hard targets. (See the 15cm for artillery that support fires against both)

3) no way as of yet- hopefully it might be something looked at by the devs in the future. Ideally I'd like to be able to set the hex!

4) some players swear by them. I've never used them.

5) Destroyers will fire in support in the same way as artillery do if they are adjacent to a unit.

Hope that helps.

[Hexaboo]

(1) Excessive losses on defence
I have Str 15 Inf with 1 star on a hill, backed by a Str 10 15cm sFH. A 14 Str Norwegian Mountain Inf moves to the mountain tile next to it and attacks. Result: -7 for both. In PzC1, this would have benn more like 7 vs 2 to my favour. Infantry attacks against tanks and recon in the open also deal a lot of damage. What's the concept behind? How are you supposed to keep you units healthy?

(2) Benefits of "smaller" units
The prime example in PzC1 is the half-priced (with transport) 10.5cm FH with its higher RoF compared to the 15cm sHF. Is there any reason to not deploy 15cm with Halftracks instead of 10.5 with Trucks now, except for the slots?

(4) Recon planes
Are they really worth the slot regarding accuracy (not scouting), and if yes - more than one?

1) As Horseman said, mountain troops get a +4 attack bonus in hills and mountains, and it's devastating for any other infantry. Convert all your infantry to Gebirgsjäger for Norway (this is probably the only place where mountaineers are required). About the infantry having an easy time damaging tanks/recons, that's an early-war issue: tanks still have rather poor defence, and infantry has been beefed up in PzC2.

2) The 15 cm gun is an all-round better option; however, cheaper guns offer more flexibility with core slots. Say, you have 6 slots to spare, and taking 2x 10.5 cm guns is probably a better option than 15 cm + 7.5 cm (because of the range). Granted, 15 cm becomes the mainstay for artillery by 1941, and until the end of the war, and it might need a little nerfing.

BTW, use the opportunity to spam a horde of 7.5 cm guns in Norway, they get a +1 to range in hills and mountains hexes (all artillery does), essentially giving you proper artillery dirt-cheap.

4) Recon planes are absolutely worth the slots, and can be preferable to bombers (especially if the enemy have a decent amount of AA artillery). Imagine attacking a village: you blast it twice with arty, and then send an infantry unit in. That's three times your recon plane has given a bonus, and (at least) 10% to accuracy is significant, it can easily turn a predicted 1 suppression to 1 predicted kill for artillery, or boost the predicted kills by 1 for direct attacks. In my example, that's a +3 predicted kill bonus with a little plane that doesn't cost much, and isn't even a high priority for enemy fighters.

And like massive attack, recon bonuses combine: you can get a recon plane and an armoured car to an enemy unit for an even bigger boost.

In any case, they aren't hugely necessary very early in the war, but as the fighting becomes tougher, you might easily end up deploying 3 or 4 on a map (depending on how many attacks you plan to carry out per turn).

[DocTsiolkovski]

Dear Hexaboo and Horseman,

thanks for the fast support.
So it seems that ari support is less effective, and almost going without casulities as in PzC1 once you knew the tactics is something I should not expect (superheroes aside).
(1) I missed the attack bonus when actively attacking, though that would only apply if an Alpine unit is on defence. Solved.

(2) solved, as I expected it. What about the StuGIIIG? Still the best bargain?

(3) Too bad.

(4) A even used 2+ recons i PzC1 campaigns, so I'm convinced now.

(5) So basically, Destroyers cannot attack anything but ships. Good to know...

Thanks, and stay healthy!
DocT

[Hexaboo]

In my experience (which includes the Sealion and American landing missions), destroyers are the best way to handle enemy submarines. So, when handling enemy fleets, the best approach is to kill enemy destroyers/torpedo boats with your capitals, and then send your submarines to kill off their battleships/cruisers. Direct confrontations between capital ships usually don't end too well (German ships typically have much less experience).

Hope you are well, too!

[SineMora]

Infantry enjoy a 50% strength advantage over other units, but they're also prone to suffering a lot of casualties, especially in close terrain as this is where they're mainly used and with the exception of engineers most of them have little or no CD. Core slots are the metric by which you judge units most of the time, as prestige is rarely a relevant factor, but it's fair to say that the 15 cm is the gold standard of German artillery, offering good range as well as both anti-soft and -hard support, all at an affordable cost.

The fragile nature of infantry makes it's very difficult to cut their losses to a minimum, however, which is one of the reasons why many veteran players simply opt out of fielding more than a few units of engineers. If you really want to use them you'll have to accept the losses or provide more fire support -- rocket artillery is especially potent with its Rapid Fire, but is limited by low ammo.

The manual has a section with a list of the major changes from PzC1 which is intended for veteran players. There's a stickied post on the Steam boards with it; I don't think there's one here, though.

[Kerensky]

The manual has a section with a list of the major changes from PzC1 which is intended for veteran players. There's a stickied post on the Steam boards with it; I don't think there's one here, though.

Hmm yes, such a link would be great for a combined FAQ. We still don't seem to have that yet though.

[KesaAnna]

I'm afraid I don't have any helpful tips for you.

I'm just here to express my gratitude that SOMEONE has finally admitted their tanks took a beating from unsupported , attacking infantry in clear terrain in Poland.

In my case ; unsupported , attacking CAVALRY in clear terrain not uncommonly knocked two , or even three , points off of my top of the line Panzer ( t ) 38's.

Gee , I realize Germany didn't start the war with the best tanks , but it's kinda hard to believe that an armored machine gun nest would take a beating from guys in wool tunics , armed with nothing but rifles , and mounted on horses , in an open field , in clear weather.

I won the Southern option of Poland in no less than 17 turns , and typically on the last turn with no more than 200 prestige .

I simply lost the northern option of Norway.

In the northern option of Norway , all the enemies troops , or nearly all , are mountain infantry. Here tanks really are totally useless.

There are maybe ten clear terrain hexes in that entire map ?

I watched a Youtube video on the Northern Option of Norway. --- That is , I watched maybe five minutes of it.

The girl rolled her Panzer ( t ) 38A into a hill terrain hex. The enemy mountain infantry attacked her tank out of a hill terrain hex , and her tank only took one or two points of damage.



I ... don't ... believe ... it.

( Even though I SAW it. )

My Panzer ( t ) 38A , in the same situation , and covered by a Sturmpanzer and a 15cm , routinely took three or even four points of damage.

---

OK , so don't use tanks in Norway ?

There is no way in Hades I can take all these far - flung objectives with an infantry / artillery force in just 20 turns.

Well , the game has only been out a month......

So far , this forum , and Youtube , are pretty worthless.

I love the game anyway , and think it has a lot of potential.

[Horseman]

I'm afraid I don't have any helpful tips for you.

I'm just here to express my gratitude that SOMEONE has finally admitted their tanks took a beating from unsupported , attacking infantry in clear terrain in Poland.

In my case ; unsupported , attacking CAVALRY in clear terrain not uncommonly knocked two , or even three , points off of my top of the line Panzer ( t ) 38's.

Gee , I realize Germany didn't start the war with the best tanks , but it's kinda hard to believe that an armored machine gun nest would take a beating from guys in wool tunics , armed with nothing but rifles , and mounted on horses , in an open field , in clear weather.

I won the Southern option of Poland in no less than 17 turns , and typically on the last turn with no more than 200 prestige .

I simply lost the northern option of Norway.

In the northern option of Norway , all the enemies troops , or nearly all , are mountain infantry. Here tanks really are totally useless.

There are maybe ten clear terrain hexes in that entire map ?

I watched a Youtube video on the Northern Option of Norway. --- That is , I watched maybe five minutes of it.

The girl rolled her Panzer ( t ) 38A into a hill terrain hex. The enemy mountain infantry attacked her tank out of a hill terrain hex , and her tank only took one or two points of damage.



I ... don't ... believe ... it.

( Even though I SAW it. )

My Panzer ( t ) 38A , in the same situation , and covered by a Sturmpanzer and a 15cm , routinely took three or even four points of damage.

---

OK , so don't use tanks in Norway ?

There is no way in Hades I can take all these far - flung objectives with an infantry / artillery force in just 20 turns.

Well , the game has only been out a month......

So far , this forum , and Youtube , are pretty worthless.

I love the game anyway , and think it has a lot of potential.

Losing 2 or 3 steps is not taking a beating, it's taking moderate casualties. Early German tanks really had paper thin armour. And those cavalry? They come equped with light AT guns and AT rifles. Both more than capable of defeating the armour of the Panzers.

One other thing of note. Cavalry in WW2 did not fight from horses in most cases. They were more like Dragoons. Horses were to move swiftly from A to B then dismount to fight.

Once you get into Russia and tour armour has (only moderately) improved those infantry/cavalry units will struggle to inflict so much as 1 step loss on your tanks in the open.

And using any tanks in close terrain is asking for Infantry to give it a beating!

Sadly I can't give any advice on Norway north as I took the south option in my 1st play through. But consensus seems to be use lots of Pioneers and Gebirgsjager (the latter will help you move more swiftly to those far flung objectives!)..

[Hexaboo]

I simply lost the northern option of Norway.
In the northern option of Norway , all the enemies troops , or nearly all , are mountain infantry. Here tanks really are totally useless.
OK , so don't use tanks in Norway ?
There is no way in Hades I can take all these far - flung objectives with an infantry / artillery force in just 20 turns.
Well , the game has only been out a month......
So far , this forum , and Youtube , are pretty worthless.
I love the game anyway , and think it has a lot of potential.

Norway North is tricky, but very doable on Guderian difficulty, i.e. in 15 turns, and I'm afraid it's your approach towards handling this mission that is lacking, and not this forum, or YouTube.

Use only mountain infantry/7.5 cm artillery guns for the ground forces (plus pioneers to take out the bunker in the east, for 400 prestige). Limit your air force: there will be bad weather. Break into the Trondheim fjord with your heavy cruiser for more artillery support. Use visibility range and flat terrain hexes to bait strong entrenched units into ambushes. Advance through the eastern valley to reach Lillehammer.

[panzeh]

I think Norway North is one of the hardest scenarios in the game and I would not recommend it for anyone's first go through the campaign.

[Kerensky]

I think Norway North is one of the hardest scenarios in the game and I would not recommend it for anyone's first go through the campaign.

I'm not entirely sure I agree it's 'hard'.
But it's definitely complex, and perhaps overwhelmingly so for newer players.

This is absolutely a scenario where you should be using your reserve. Put all your tanks into reserve, and load up on extra infantry/artillery/air power.
I suspect, given this is the 3rd scenario of the main campaign, that is probably asking too much of most new players.

[nexusno2000]

I think Norway North is one of the hardest scenarios in the game and I would not recommend it for anyone's first go through the campaign.

I'm not entirely sure I agree it's 'hard'.
But it's definitely complex, and perhaps overwhelmingly so for newer players.

This is absolutely a scenario where you should be using your reserve. Put all your tanks into reserve, and load up on extra infantry/artillery/air power.
I suspect, given this is the 3rd scenario of the main campaign, that is probably asking too much of most new players.

The whole "teleport into Trondheim" mechanic shows how flawed the entire deploy-from-supply hex mechanic is.

[Kerensky]

The whole "teleport into Trondheim" mechanic shows how flawed the entire deploy-from-supply hex mechanic is.

Totally disagree. How is that flawed? Units have to deploy from somewhere. Far better to be restricted to supply hexes that have the backing of urban infrastructure than appearing from any location with a flag, which is the Panzer General tradition.

I still remember so many complaints over original Panzer Corps about the AI purchasing huge swarms of reinforcements from any location it wants.
It was so bad, the Grand Campaign stripped all purchasing power away from the AI to put a stop to this.

[nexusno2000]

The whole "teleport into Trondheim" mechanic shows how flawed the entire deploy-from-supply hex mechanic is.

Totally disagree. How is that flawed? Units have to deploy from somewhere. Far better to be restricted to supply hexes that have the backing of urban infrastructure than appearing from any location with a flag, which is the Panzer General tradition.

I still remember so many complaints over original Panzer Corps about the AI purchasing huge swarms of reinforcements from any location it wants.
It was so bad, the Grand Campaign stripped all purchasing power away from the AI to put a stop to this.

I don't care how it worked in other games. Completely irrelevant.

It is flawed bc you cannot separate supply and new unit creation/teleport.

Norway N is one thing, but now I can't make a scenario where supply/unit creation is separate.

Oh wait, this is exactly the same as PC1, only fewer hexes. And the AI has been banned from buying anything in the Core campaign for that reason.

[Horseman]

The whole "teleport into Trondheim" mechanic shows how flawed the entire deploy-from-supply hex mechanic is.

Totally disagree. How is that flawed? Units have to deploy from somewhere. Far better to be restricted to supply hexes that have the backing of urban infrastructure than appearing from any location with a flag, which is the Panzer General tradition.

I still remember so many complaints over original Panzer Corps about the AI purchasing huge swarms of reinforcements from any location it wants.
It was so bad, the Grand Campaign stripped all purchasing power away from the AI to put a stop to this.

Agreed. I see it more as troops/equipment mustering at these spots, which makes sense at supply hubs.

Trondheim would represent these things coming over on troop ships behind the primary wave. Troops you deploy are those on landing craft suitable for coastal landing rather than needing a proper port.

[nexusno2000]

The whole "teleport into Trondheim" mechanic shows how flawed the entire deploy-from-supply hex mechanic is.

Totally disagree. How is that flawed? Units have to deploy from somewhere. Far better to be restricted to supply hexes that have the backing of urban infrastructure than appearing from any location with a flag, which is the Panzer General tradition.

I still remember so many complaints over original Panzer Corps about the AI purchasing huge swarms of reinforcements from any location it wants.
It was so bad, the Grand Campaign stripped all purchasing power away from the AI to put a stop to this.

Agreed. I see it more as troops/equipment mustering at these spots, which makes sense at supply hubs.

Trondheim would represent these things coming over on troop ships behind the primary wave. Troops you deploy are those on landing craft suitable for coastal landing rather than needing a proper port.

After a fashion, yes. You could fly in some dudes and supplies. And after the RN is gone, send stuff in with ships. This is also what the scenario designer had in mind,

But you start 3-4 inf, maybe 1 aty. They sail in and take up position r1, no shots fired. In round 2 you control Trondheim. Then BOOM suddenly you triple your army and the airforce arrive. Round 3 you're ready to roll.

Yeah, great mechanic there.

[Horseman]

I think it is a good mechanic. Something a little different (maybe a little much for the 3rd scenario for newer players)

EDIT: It does stretch plausabilty a touch but then so does "hey I have enough prestige, high command can i get a unit of those new Tigers please?" And boom there they are. I can live with the latter so can definately live with the former.

[Kerensky]

But you start 3-4 inf, maybe 1 aty. They sail in and take up position r1, no shots fired. In round 2 you control Trondheim. Then BOOM suddenly you triple your army and the airforce arrive. Round 3 you're ready to roll.

Yeah, great mechanic there.

Meh, I'm not convinced by your points. Limited use from Supply Hexes only adds confusion. How do players know when they hit the limit? Players are already struggling with the difference between city supply hexes and field supply hexes as is. Does it need to be more complex?

And any kind of weird arbitrary limitation completely falls on it face as soon as you make one adjustment: Add adjacent hex that is also a city supply point. Now there's a huge problem of as the player force grows, supply hexes need to be 1 hex entities early on, 2 hex entities in mid game, and keep growing and growing with the player army size? What a mess.

And yea, not letting the AI make ridiculous purchases is 100% a positive thing. Grand Campaign paved that road from the avalanche of complaints players sent, and sure as shit Panzer Corps 2 walked down it. Nothing is made better by the AI making wildly random purchases and sprouting armies before the eyes of the player like magic.

Now the real question is how to bring back enemy unit variation between playthroughs in Panzer Corps 2, which has disabled AI purchasing. The answer is better, more complex scenario design. You can see it in the solo scenario complexity of AI settings such as in the behavior of those German reinforcements in Gothic Line. You can really see it in the Defenders of the Reich script file.

[Hexaboo]

After a fashion, yes. You could fly in some dudes and supplies. And after the RN is gone, send stuff in with ships. This is also what the scenario designer had in mind,
But you start 3-4 inf, maybe 1 aty. They sail in and take up position r1, no shots fired. In round 2 you control Trondheim. Then BOOM suddenly you triple your army and the airforce arrive. Round 3 you're ready to roll.
Yeah, great mechanic there.

Yeah, that's why they try to capture seaports as quickly as possible in real naval landings. Because you can ship many more supplies and troops much quicker. The way it's done in Norway North makes perfect sense.