600 pt Arthurian starting list for beginning player

[Xelee]

Hi all, one of the guys at the club has managed to somehow get the ball rolling for FOG. Since I can handle ancients as long as it's Arthurians, I thought I'd give them a go for FOG.

Please bear in mind:
1. I only actually have a DBA army's worth of figs yet, so pretty much complete freedom. I just want some comments before I get some OG15s to bulk out my Splintered Light Minis 2. I haven't actually played FOG at all, or even watched a game, just tried gleaning what I can from the book/batreps. 3. I have a great deal of attachment to Arthurians and even silliness like the Arthur IC, I understand that's often the road to perdition in list design but it might take a lot of explaining to get me over the 'list you can love even when it loses factor'

The list (using the spreadhseet for layout), last column is bases per BG, I've left off points because that's sometimes not Kosher:

TC - - - - - - - 1
IC - - - - - - - 1
TC - - - - - - - 1
Cv Armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4
Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 6
Cv Protected Average Undrilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
Cv Protected Average Undrilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
HF Protected Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 8
HF Protected Average Undrilled - Light spear Swordmen - 8
LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light spear - 4
LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - 6
LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - 6
HF Protected Average Undrilled - Light spear Swordmen - 6
596 pts

I would like to know in particular:
1. Am I too wedded to having every last Cav stand I can? Should the Cav be organised differently?
2. Is my foot mix ok? Should it be different and why?
3. It seems like lightspear/sword isn't too bad a rating at all? I get a + in both impact and melee?
4. Is HF Spear the right way to go? I have the option to mix (though drilled/undrilled) and the option to either/or so I'd love to know what people think.
5. What should the order of march be?
6. Is it possible to somehow game the terrain? I'm not used to systems like the FOG one. How would that work? Does this affect whether I should be going MF or HF in anyway?

Many Thanks

[SirGarnet]

Pending wiser advice from someone who has come up with a specific doctrine for this army, and without knowing whether the opponents are historical, thematic, or open , I have a few thoughts to start things rolling -

Drilled and especially 4 bases are better for Lt Spear/Sword Cavalry skirmishing than Undrilled 6s.

Light Spear/Swordsmen is a troop type relatively better in terrain than the open, and MF are substantially faster than HF for working with Cav, so I would probably go with MF and consider the foederati or an ally to bring heavier foot if desired. Since Arthur limits you to pre-540, that extra 1 point for drilled troops will make a big difference for you tactically. Drilled troops also don't need an IC much, although you might still want one facing armies with a lot of shooters.

Mike

[hammy]

An interesting choice for a first army but I can see the merits of an army you love and there are some nice features in the SRB list.

Lots of cavalry is good but I would look to drop the 6 base BG to a 4 simply because in general drilled cavalry are all about maneuver and the larger the BG the harder it is to do 'tricks' .

As you are going with Arthur and drilled foot I would be very tempted to run the infantry as medium foot. If you are clever when you build the army you could make sabot bases to allow the same figures to be used for medium or heavy foot which would mean basing 4 figures on a 40 by 15 base and then having 40 by 20 spacer bases to sit them on when they are MF.

I would look to try something like this:

TC - - - - - - - 1
IC - - - - - - - 1
TC - - - - - - - 1
Cv Armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4
Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
Cv Protected Average Undrilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
Cv Protected Average Undrilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
MF Protected Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 6
MF Protected Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 6
MF Protected Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 6
MF Protected Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 6
LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Javelins Light spear - 4
LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - 6
LF Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - - 6
598 pts

4 BGs of cavalry, 4 of medium foot and 3 of skirmishers. Not bad for 600 points with an IC.

1. Am I too wedded to having every last Cav stand I can? Should the Cav be organised differently?

Yes and no, see above. BGs of 4 are IMO better for the cavalry in this army. There are times when you want 6s but only really with armoured cavalry or if you have a lot of light foot to screen them from missiles.

2. Is my foot mix ok? Should it be different and why?

I think MF would be better than HF if you are taking drilled foot.

3. It seems like lightspear/sword isn't too bad a rating at all? I get a + in both impact and melee?

Lt sp/sword is a decent combination and also has the advantage that you are not shock troops which means you can't be forced to charge when you don;t want to.

4. Is HF Spear the right way to go? I have the option to mix (though drilled/undrilled) and the option to either/or so I'd love to know what people think.

The spear version of the army is quite different and doesn't tie in with the Arthur thing.

5. What should the order of march be?

A good question. Generally people start with skirmishers then more mobile troops then the slow and difficult to redeploy bits. That said I have done well with the opposite approach when I have not had that many skirmishers of my own as it lets me pick the skirmish fight I want and ignire the other one.

6. Is it possible to somehow game the terrain? I'm not used to systems like the FOG one. How would that work? Does this affect whether I should be going MF or HF in anyway?

Absolutely. At the start of each game there is no terrain on the table and based on the initiative roll one player gets to choose where the battle will be fought. That in turn drives the terrain choices. Check out P137 for the setup rules. I would definitely start using MF with this army.

[Xelee]

Thanks for the comments guys, I'll go with the BG changes as suggested and make the spear all MF. I have to admit, I read the Spear entry incorrectly and somehow thought the 'bases per BG' were nested minima, so I didn't realise I could be all drilled for my foot!

They have rated the Romano-Brits, and their famous Dark Age Warlord, more highly than I had dared hope. It's definitely enhanced the 'fun factor' of the list.

The list will probably be for open play (at least Ancients + Dark Ages) and I had been worried that MF would get simply rolled by some of the Impact HF out there. If MF can be relied on to do the job, then I'm quite happy to have the extra mobility.

Cheers

[lawrenceg]

Thanks for the comments guys, I'll go with the BG changes as suggested and make the spear all MF. I have to admit, I read the Spear entry incorrectly and somehow thought the 'bases per BG' were nested minima, so I didn't realise I could be all drilled for my foot!

They have rated the Romano-Brits, and their famous Dark Age Warlord, more highly than I had dared hope. It's definitely enhanced the 'fun factor' of the list.

The list will probably be for open play (at least Ancients + Dark Ages) and I had been worried that MF would get simply rolled by some of the Impact HF out there. If MF can be relied on to do the job, then I'm quite happy to have the extra mobility.

Cheers

The MF light spear will often get rolled by Impact HF, but you can use the mobility and terrain to avoid them, outflank them, and/or concentrate local superiority. Plus you have the armoured cavalry as the main fighting force.

[Xelee]

Thanks for the comments, this kind of thing helps a lot when you are trying new rules for the first time.

Bear with me a second as I read down the POA charts (and I'm claiming head fogginess due to the cumulative grand-slam of all kids+parents ill at once!). Better I get corrected now than on the game table:
MF light sp, in the open:
HF and MF Impact Foot will be ++ to my +
HF and MF Off spear will be + to my +

Lance mounted get ++ to my + in the open
Almost all other mounted (not ellies or scythed chariots) get + to my + in the open (and so mounted light spear will go to net + ?)

So not much loss to my being MF versus other foot, though I do get the CT penalty when I lose at impact, but pretty much always another POA + for enemy mounted at impact?

Being in the rough helps a fair bit against enemy mounted, who lose all the lancer perks, the non HF perk and won't even get the light spear one?

Being MF in melee doesn't make any real difference?

In all cases, if I can make interactions happen in rough terrain (heh, as if) I can bank on non-MF/LF opponents losing approx 1-2 dice due to disorder effects?

Thanks for the endorsement of MF btw Hammy, it fits my image of the Arthurian type force much better and I had gone HF because for some reason I thought I was giving up a + POA at impact to everything. In fact, it's the CT penalty I was thinking of. On a close reading of tables, I see that being drilled doesn't just make CMTs easier, it greatly reduces the number of cases where CMTs are even required. Reliability, I like it.

Also, my foggy brain thinks that at 4cm per base, my 24 spear bases add up to pretty much 4' double base depth. Hmmm.

[BlackPrince]

I have started working on my Romano Brits also running with Arthur.
I was think of using HF mainly to avoid getting the minus on CT for MF fighting HF.
For 800pt games I was thinking use a Roman ally to do most of the foot fighting. In this case may be using RB foot as MF to hold the terrian for the Romans could work well.
I noticed hammy favours the Protected cav as average and not sup why?

Keith

[Xelee]

I noticed hammy favours the Protected cav as average and not sup why?

It took me ages to figure out that that's what he had done (kept coming up 22pts over) and I'd say it was to make the list fit properly with that number of BGs. Personally, along with Welsh allies, upgrading the Cav is first on my list for higher points totals.

I think you are right that Roman allied inf makes a lot of sense for the list, but I don't think it's quite right for the Arthurian timing. As it is, I think I'm pushing things a bit timespanwise with all the Roman legacy stuff (ie all the drilled troops), given the likely date for Mt Badon is according to Wikipedia's amusing, given the FOG list dates, formulation: "Some time in the decade before or after 500".

That said, just how historical can a King Arthur list ever be anyway?

[SirGarnet]

Your POA analysis is correct, including the tricky Mtd LSp POA. HF are better against charging mounted in the open, but in Melee the POAs even out although MF remain likelier to crumble in a Cohesion Test. Bear in mind that the savage Saxons and perfidious Picts are foot armies - it's only when Arthur sails off to quest for the grail at Jerusalem or Merlin whisks him through time that he's likely to face nasty mounted armies.

Some people feel that HF just slow you down. They do make a better wall in the open.

24 spears 2-deep are 48cm wide and 4cm deep, though for tactical reasons you may deepen up some battle groups or have a second support line and have a shorter frontage.

Hammy knows how to make horsemen dance on the head of a pin so he would find uses for the Protected Cavalry that don't necessitate Armoured, such as rear support, skirmishing and flank interceptions or charges once the enemy line of battle is disjointed.

Mike.

[BlackPrince]

Xelee,

I agree on the historical aspects but if Arthur was not included in the list there is no Romance with this Army and it was what it has going for it. As far as the Roman allies are concerted I was very surprised to see them in the list as Rome in 409 or so told Britain you are on your own. Though with war gaming you have to be pragmatic besides you can paint your Romans with nice early Christian symbols on their shields.

Keith

[nikgaukroger]

As far as the Roman allies are concerted I was very surprised to see them in the list as Rome in 409 or so told Britain you are on your own.

As it says in the list "Roman allies represent a possible return of the field army circa 416." - there is an article in Britannia, vol 4 by John Hester Ward called "The British Sections of the 'Notitia Dignitatum': An Alternative Interpretation" which covers this if you are interested (and can get hold of it of course).

[Xelee]

So it does, up till c418-419, and including actual proper Comitatenses at that. Keith, that short article can be easily found as a downloadable pdf through JSTOR if you can get access to a library with the electronic subscription.

[nikgaukroger]

Or find some kind person who has said article *cough*

[Xelee]

Well all I was saying was that it's a small pdf, that I have just downloaded through my library, where I have access to the electronic subscription...

[hammy]

<snip>

Being MF in melee doesn't make any real difference?

If fighting in the open there is still the CT penalty when beaten by HF and mounted but other than that MF are just as good or bas as anything else in melee

On a close reading of tables, I see that being drilled doesn't just make CMTs easier, it greatly reduces the number of cases where CMTs are even required. Reliability, I like it.

Essentially almost everything that requires a test for undrilled is automatic for drilled and a whole range of new options are available to drilled that undrilled troops can't even dream of.

I noticed hammy favours the Protected cav as average and not sup why?

It is mainly a points thing. I see the role of the protected cavalry as chasing off enemy light troops and looking to hit flanks. Superior is nice but also comparatively expensive. As long as the IC is in command radius of the cavalry they should be fine against shooting (assuming single rank). Being average makes rear support easier to get (or realisticaly with this army it makes rear support possible at all). At 800 points I may well look to the upgrade but as long as you treat average cavalry correctly they are well worth the points.

[Xelee]

It is mainly a points thing. I see the role of the protected cavalry as chasing off enemy light troops and looking to hit flanks.

Yeah, this list strikes me as singularly lacking in strike capability. Light spear inf seems ok in the right terrain, but certainly is no where near the top of the infantry tier and will be outmatched on POAs versus most armies. Likewise the Cav, a unit of four armoured lancers and a unit of four armoured light spear. A single shock unit, that will inevitably acquire a few suitable opposition 'markers'.

Well at least the army is maneuverable!

The OG 15s are in the airmail, thanks to Steve J there for the good service.

[BlackPrince]

While at this stage I personally favour the Roman Ally to add hitting to this army I would think at the very least you should take the Saxon Foederati. The impact foot gives you a chance of do some damage in the impact phase before things start to go down hill. The Roman Ally means you can get two BG of lancer Armoured Cav or a couple BGs of legionnaires this where you need to balance Romance of the army versus pragmatism of winning a game or two.

[SirGarnet]

Yeah, this list strikes me as singularly lacking in strike capability.

In brute force strike capability (unless you take the foederati), but with expertise a rapier can be as deadly as an axe. Keep playing it and you'll figure it out.

Mike

[Xelee]

Late Romans are good troops and are probably the next army for me, since I've always liked them.

However, they and the Saxon allies are far before the time of Romano-British success (ie Badon and the following decades where the Saxons kept their respectful distance). As it is, the 'Arthur's companions' option, not to mention the IC, is pretty generous given what the Post-Roman Brits probably had to work with historically!

As it is, the Armoured POA is the one I'm going to really miss since even rough terrain isn't going to take that away from my opponents and my own foot isn't all that flash in Melee, the BGs aren't really that big and they have the Av breakpoints.

(edit) All that said, I reserve the right to 'wimp out' and get some Legionaries if really is 'impossible to win without them'

[vsolfronk]

I am going to use the Dom ally for my Arthurians. For figures I am using Splintered Light's- Wolfs Tail troops for the legionares/aux which fit in real well for an "elite" foot warrior group for Arthur (and perhaps can still be used for real Romans).