No Early Welsh Archers?

[Yr_Arglwydd_Rhys]

I am curious to learn why the Early Welsh list has no archers, when their historical allies & adversaries possess this troop type?

The omission is even more peculiar considering that the list runs until 1100. By this time there is evidence to suggest that the Welsh might already have been using longbows to great effect against the Normans.

My supporting evidence is former Sandhurst lecturer Philip Warner's Famous Welsh Battles (1977). Warner notes Gerald of Wales' account of an attack on Abergavenny castle during which "the Welsh...penetrated with their arrows the oaken portal of the tower, which was four fingers thick". Warner also highlights the testimony of Norman knights that their armour proved insufficient protection against Welsh arrows.

Admittedly, Gerald himself was writing in the twelfth century, over half a century since the end of this list. Therefore, I accept the omission of the longbow capacity, although I would suggest considering longbows from 1050 or so (for want of a specific date).

Yet, it is hard to believe that, as the Early Welsh list seems to suggest, the Welsh went from no bow skill whatsoever in 1100 to producing and employing the longbow within the space of a few decades.

Based on the other lists for contemporary British armies, it is even more difficult to think that this occurred when the post-Roman British, the Scots, the Picts, the Irish, the Vikings and the Anglo-Norse all used bow-armed troops in some way or other.

In short, where are the Welsh bowmen?

[tadamson]

I am curious to learn why the Early Welsh list has no archers, when their historical allies & adversaries possess this troop type?

The omission is even more peculiar considering that the list runs until 1100. By this time there is evidence to suggest that the Welsh might already have been using longbows to great effect against the Normans.

My supporting evidence is former Sandhurst lecturer Philip Warner's Famous Welsh Battles (1977). Warner notes Gerald of Wales' account of an attack on Abergavenny castle during which "the Welsh...penetrated with their arrows the oaken portal of the tower, which was four fingers thick". Warner also highlights the testimony of Norman knights that their armour proved insufficient protection against Welsh arrows.

Admittedly, Gerald himself was writing in the twelfth century, over half a century since the end of this list. Therefore, I accept the omission of the longbow capacity, although I would suggest considering longbows from 1050 or so (for want of a specific date).

Yet, it is hard to believe that, as the Early Welsh list seems to suggest, the Welsh went from no bow skill whatsoever in 1100 to producing and employing the longbow within the space of a few decades.

Based on the other lists for contemporary British armies, it is even more difficult to think that this occurred when the post-Roman British, the Scots, the Picts, the Irish, the Vikings and the Anglo-Norse all used bow-armed troops in some way or other.

In short, where are the Welsh bowmen?

Abergavenny was 1182. The first inkling of bodies of archers is under Edward I (who made massive efforts to expand the availability if infantry), even then they are English.

Scots, Danes Islesmen etc would have many ship troops with bows (one bow per rowing bench was pretty standard) and forresters (working for the King in royal forrests) were expected to be able to hunt with bows (hunting vermin and pests, not deer). Wales lacked both these sources. Though the Welsh and English in the marches do seem to have adopted archery with massive enthusiasim at the end of the 11th beginning of the 12th c.

Tom..

[Yr_Arglwydd_Rhys]

Thanks for the response Tom. I agree that Abergavenny was in 1182, and I made this point in my earlier post. My post only suggests the emergence of the longbow at the tail end of the Early Welsh list, as indeed does the end of your response.

I am also aware that this argument is somewhat academic, yet as FoG is based on historical evidence, the academic element is not entirely redundant, and allows for good debates such as these. Indeed, the list (and the FoG system) are generally excellent, offering a fascinating insight into ancient and medieval warfare with no small degree of accuracy. I'm afraid Welsh medieval history is a particular interest of mine, so please excuse the exuberance of my response.

However, I'm afraid I disagree with some of your other points. A number of sources are available which argue that Edward I came to include longbow men in his forces following his earlier experiences against the Welsh (and the Scots). Brian Todd Carey (2006), for example, makes this point in his 'Warfare in the Medieval World' (pp. 149-150). Moreover, he also notes the vulnerability of Anglo-Norman heavy cavalry to attacks by light longbow-armed infantry in far earlier engagements against the Welsh (p.4 and p.148). Indeed, John Davies' A History of Wales (1994/2007) provides a good overview of the Welsh counter-offensive against the Normans in the last years of the C11 which resulted in the Normans clinging on to a handful of castles as their last footholds in Wales by 1100.

The Welsh longbows were selfbows, constructed from a single piece of wood, usually yew (Carey, p.149), and an archer would take years to foster the strength and skill required for its use. That the Normans were suffering against the Welsh longbow in the C12 suggests that the weapon was in fairly significant use by this time. Any weapon requires years of development and use before entering wide-scale use, and I see no reason to treat the longbow as any different. Based on this, I assume that prior to the developing the longbow the Welsh possessed some skill and knowledge of archery. Thus, both the resources and know-how were present in Wales for the construction of longbows by the C12.

My key point, however, is that according to the list there is NO archer capability whatsoever for the Welsh for the Dark Age period, whilst all other British armies possess archers. It is very difficult to believe that this was the case historically, not only due to the development of the longbow but also based on the interaction between the Welsh and other bow-using peoples. The list therefore treats the Welsh in isolation, whilst historical evidence testifies to the contrary.

A significant degree of cultural, military and commercial interchange between the peoples of the British Isles. The 'Welsh' (Welsh: y Cymry, meaning people of the same descent, and the origin of many place names such as Cumbria/Cumberland) during most of this time were not a unified political entity, and identified themselves with the residents of much of north and western England. Wales was the seat of key centres of learning during this period (such as St. Davids), and at the crossing point of major Atlantic coast trade routes (see Norman Davies' The Isles: A History, 2000, and Alistair Moffat's The Sea Kingdoms, 2002).

In short, in addition to the need for a forerunner to the longbow, the extent of the Welsh's interaction with other 'British' peoples suggests that it is safer to assume that the Welsh had bows than assuming that they didn't.

[tadamson]

I understand your feelings, I would comment that Edward I campaigns only started in 1276 so are much later. longbows, as individual hunting weapons, date back to 2500 BCE but what is lacking is evidence of bodies of archers. Find that and you might get archer bases for the early welsh.

eg At least 34% of all the men in any given Viking army had bows, but they only get a few (very few) archers.

(nb I'm not part of the lists team)

Tom..

[JeffKey]

I'm no Welsh scholar but I've been researching them and playing my DBM Welsh for almost thirty years. I am personally convinced that the Welsh used bows in combat much earlier than FoG permits. For examples from: Longbows, Arrows and the Origin of Fletchers

> "In the year 633, Offrid, the son of Edwin, King of Northumbria, was killed by an arrow in battle with the Welsh and the Mercians. It's not certain the arrow was from a Welsh longbow but this is an early account of the use of the longbow by the Welsh archers in military action. The story promotes the belief which credits the Welsh with inventing and introducing the longbow into the British Isles. The acknowledged expert on the longbow, Robert Hardy, has written:"If the Welsh did not have bows yet, it cannot have been long before they adopted the weapon from the raiding Danes, but it is more than likely that, however they first came by it, the Welsh, among all the tribes in the British Isles, either retained the use of the bow from much earlier times, or invented it for themselves long before there could have been any chance for them to have learned of its use from the Scandinavians."
> "There is reliable evidence of its military use by the Welsh in an ambush of invading Saxon horsemen in the Welsh mountains by Welsh longbow archers in 1054. The archers shot so accurately and strongly that the Saxons fled before they could throw their spears."
> "At the siege of Abergavenny in 1182, Welsh archers, using longbows, pierced an oak door four inches thick with their arrows and William de Braose was hit by a Welsh arrow. This arrow went through his chainmail, into his thigh, through the saddle and penetrated the horse he was riding.

Robert Hardy convinced me long ago.