AA - German 8.8 strength

[Dorky8]

I'm finding the 8.8 to be very weak against air units. Not sure its worth purchasing, certainly in the early MP scenarios (France etc) fighters are a far better option. What am I missing?

[MickMannock]

I'm finding the 8.8 to be very weak against air units. Not sure its worth purchasing, certainly in the early MP scenarios (France etc) fighters are a far better option. What am I missing?

I don't know about MP but in the vanilla campaign, I found that I had problem buying as much fighters as I did in PC1 (there's just not enough core slots). One way to mitigate that is to buy AA (I bought 20mm flak though and not 88's) and tactical bombers that can dual role as fighters (i.e. the Bf 110 in the early parts of the war, and later on Fw 190F and G).

[Dorky8]

In PC1 the 8.8 had very strong AA and very strong (probably to strong early) AT attributes. Here I'm seeing it as a marginal deterrent against air. In general I'm not finding AA to be useful and under strengthed in air centric MP scenarios like France.

[NightPhoenix]

The reason why the 8.8 is "weak" is due to the game mechanics. The 8.8 has exceptionally high air attack (and hard attack in AT mode). This makes it have a 100% chance of dealing damage when an attack hits. but due to the accuracy of 50% the 8.8 has 5 damage predicted in good weather and 2,5 in cloudy weather. (given it has no experience) The problem with the 8.8 cm is that so much air attack is useless against smaller caliber planes. I think it has 24, but your AA units will get much better results with say, 8-12 attack which gives you a 65%+ chance if an attack hits but the units have rapid fire, so double the shots. This is why i prefer the 7/1 or the 2cm flakvierling. They do much better against fighters and tactical bombers. Are cheaper in prestige and core slots. And you don't need the AT-mode of the 8.8's if you have 15cm artillery anyways. Granted this is only if you take the deadly AA trait, which i find to be exceptionally useful. If you don't have that, i'm not 100% sure, but i think the same applies, but with supression. Don't pin me on that though, as i haven't tested that.

[Dorky8]

very helpful ty

[Dorky8]

Noob question. How do I pick an attribute in MP? Or are they just allocated based on combat?

[Dorky8]

The 8.8 seems to be great in support. Fighters much more effective if 8.8 in range. Maybe be of more value than I thought.

[Irrak]

The deadly AA trait makes the 8.8 a real killer. With some experience, they are shooting down half the air wing in one go, after which fighters can finish them off easily.

[Dmurphy238]

I have had an 88 since near the beginning (now in England) and even with a rapid deployment hero, if I am lucky, I take a few points away from an aircraft before I set my fighters on it. I think point for point, a fighter or the Me110 are points better spent. I do need to try out the lower caliber AA units, I have only been looking at air attack numbers but not accuracy or rapid fire.

[Dorky8]

In the MP French game the 8.8 is almost 500pts and the 109 is 110pts. So its a no brainer 4 109's or 1 8.8.

[o_t_d_x]

The deadly AA trait makes the 8.8 a real killer. With some experience, they are shooting down half the air wing in one go, after which fighters can finish them off easily.

Only half ? Mine is 12 strenght with 3 stars and kills normally 7till 9 out of ten. I used two of them in africa and the allied air superiority was .... ähm not long lasting.
And i need only one fighter, as escort for my stukas.

And yes it is expensive at beginning, but it covers 4 hexes range, if on a hill. So the soft ground targets like artys are punished much much less. Which saves lots of prestige.

[adiekmann]

The 8.8cm Flak gun is excellent when you pair it with the lethal attack hero. It does what the Anti-aircraft veteran General Trait does, but to a lesser effect. Still, turns your 88 into a aircraft killer!

(That hero is excellent when paired with a good strategic bomber too!)

[Kimdal]

88 is a monster provided some conditions. Anti-Air veteran commander trait with two heroes: Camouflage and rapid fire.

Rapid fire with anti-air veteran kills all airplanes straight away. With camouflage new enemy planes keep coming, all shot down, none of them doing any harm, until AA ammo runs out.

After enemy air threat is gone, switch to anti-tank mode and ambush enemy tanks. Move recons or other baits close to enemy tanks and put the 88 with camouflage and rapid fire just behind for protection. It’s kills all the tanks in similar way as airplanes. AI is stupid enough to destroy all his forces. This doesn’t work if enemy has recon nearby, though.

[gokkel]

88 covers a larger area than a fighter, and it can provide cover to more than one unit at a time (fighters only protect ground units once per turn).

Flakvierling and self-propelled variations can be more effective dealing with fighters and tactical bombers due to higher rate of fire, but they are basically useless against strategic bombers (which I find acceptable, because they do not cause much direct damage anyway) and they have less range (which is much more relevant, as you need more to cover your units and they have to position more in the front, which can be dangerous and/or inconvenient).

In my playthroughs so far I played with the Anti-Air veteran trait so I have no idea about their performance without still (have to change that for my next playthrough). With the trait it is very easy to clear out enemy planes without using own fighters a lot. Without the trait, all the AA does is prevent some damage taken by your units, just like artillery does for ground units, but you still would need firepower from your own planes to finish them off. Although I wonder if that is even necessary - if your units are protected, getting rid of the enemy planes completely and quickly does not seem like a high priority.

Once your 88s get some experience and maybe are overstrengthened to 12 points, they should be much more effective.

[Horseman]

88 covers a larger area than a fighter, and it can provide cover to more than one unit at a time (fighters only protect ground units once per turn).

Flakvierling and self-propelled variations can be more effective dealing with fighters and tactical bombers due to higher rate of fire, but they are basically useless against strategic bombers (which I find acceptable, because they do not cause much direct damage anyway) and they have less range (which is much more relevant, as you need more to cover your units and they have to position more in the front, which can be dangerous and/or inconvenient).

In my playthroughs so far I played with the Anti-Air veteran trait so I have no idea about their performance without still (have to change that for my next playthrough). With the trait it is very easy to clear out enemy planes without using own fighters a lot. Without the trait, all the AA does is prevent some damage taken by your units, just like artillery does for ground units, but you still would need firepower from your own planes to finish them off. Although I wonder if that is even necessary - if your units are protected, getting rid of the enemy planes completely and quickly does not seem like a high priority.

Once your 88s get some experience and maybe are overstrengthened to 12 points, they should be much more effective.

Do fighters only protect ground units once?

I know that is how it worked in PC1 but I honestly can't say I noticed that here. I thought they protected until their ammo ran out?

[gokkel]

Do fighters only protect ground units once?

I know that is how it worked in PC1 but I honestly can't say I noticed that here. I thought they protected until their ammo ran out?

They seem to protect other planes until they run out of ammo, but only once for ground units.

[Horseman]

Do fighters only protect ground units once?

I know that is how it worked in PC1 but I honestly can't say I noticed that here. I thought they protected until their ammo ran out?

They seem to protect other planes until they run out of ammo, but only once for ground units.

Useful to know for future reference!

Also reinforces my belief that AA do have a role to play in protecting your ground troops.

[adiekmann]

Do fighters only protect ground units once?

I know that is how it worked in PC1 but I honestly can't say I noticed that here. I thought they protected until their ammo ran out?

They seem to protect other planes until they run out of ammo, but only once for ground units.

Useful to know for future reference!

Also reinforces my belief that AA do have a role to play in protecting your ground troops.

Perhaps I am remembering incorrectly, but I could swear that I remember them firing on attacking aircraft more than once, even if it is the same ground unit being attacked

[marilin]

I think it does not have the necessary strength

[Kimdal]

I think it does not have the necessary strength

I overstrength units with heroes, so with fire multiplier heroes you get either 22 or 30 shots. With base accuracy that means 11 or 15 hits.

It’s expensive, but in ideal conditions ´88 is more effective than 4 fighters. It can do the same damage as 4 overstrength fighters, but even more, in AT mode wipe out the tanks that especially early German armor is not effective against.

’88 also helps in taking no losses compared to winning battles with some losses, thus saving prestige and time in higher difficulty levels. In the end of Africa campaign you save prestige (for the 10k prestige option to play non-historical path) by removing overstrength and downgrading to cheaper AA for a moment.