A tight space

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:43 pm

the light horse want to charge the xbow light foot. To do so they have to wheel.

#1 - Can they wheel at the beginning since their side edge of the rear unit is in contact with their own troops? since this is not their front edge they should NOT be allowed to interpenetrate correct?

#2 - The could drop to a single file at the beginning but there is not 60mm room to their rear due to the bow being in the way. Again, no interpretation since its not involving a front edge.

#3 - They could move forward just a bit to clear the friendly Med foot and then wheel. But in doing so they would need to drop to a single file when meeting the friendly LH facing down the page. the rules state they drop back when meeting friends. As such the angle of the group would take the rear of the LH into the Med Foot without having 60mm clearance.

Can anyone see a way that they could charge the xbow LF?

Madcam.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:59 pm

Why aren't they wheeling 90 in the charge and also contracting in the charge to avoid friends? Once the first base wheels and charges to contact there appears room for the rest of the contracted column to fill in behind the kink in the column.

Things will get sorted out better when you conform/feed in bases.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:18 pm

Hi Mike,

Can only contract up to pass friends. Since they are in contact at the start they get to contract at the start but the distance is insufficient. See the note about being <60mm from rear of the LH BG to the rear of the bow BG. The rules pg 54 state "the only change in formation that is allowed during a charge move is to contract the BG frontage by one base _if necessary_ to pass friendly troops. The frontage is reduced and bases fall back behind those in front." This appears to say they preforom this contraction at the start before the wheel.

IMO you are attempting to "free-form" the BG as a blob.

fatismo · Post by **fatismo** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:01 am

Looks like there is room for the following. The LH move forward untill they are clear of troops in contact with them, they then start wheel, when they contact the other LH unit they contract into column (this should clear the MF), continue to wheel and move with front base of LH, the remaining bases follow the first kinking as needed.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:25 am

@fatismo... when they move forward to clear the MF, they begin their wheel. The distance to the other LH is noted on the picture. If they wheel they will everturally hit the LH in the flank. At that point they will be eligible to contract - not till. when they do, they move their bases to the rear....

...I say the lead two elements stay fixed while the two other elements are moved to the rear - ONLY if there is room to place them there physically. If not, due to not having 60mm distance to the MF's front from the 2nd LH elements rear, then they can't contract and the charge is cancelled.

Problems with this....?

Madcam.

fatismo · Post by **fatismo** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:36 am

Sorry bit confused by your reply??

Anyway check out this thread

viewtopic.php?t=8919&postdays=0&postord ... s&start=20

This is about interpenitrating friends and basically says that you can start your wheel straight away and it is no counted in going through the troops above your LH when the get to the LH on the right the left side of the charging LH contracts behing the right side to form a column, then continues to wheel in a cloum

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:57 am

LH move forward enough to clear the MF... no issues so far

LH begin their wheel towards the LF and hit a friendly BG...A OK

They contract with enough room to do so... Still fine..

They continue with the wheel.. oops, hit the MF once again!!! What now?

Can they "blob" out the other side to end up here??? (I had to moved the other LH to make room for conversations sake in the game there wasn't but I want to carry out the conversation)

Seems a bit strangG to transport thru the MF Bg. Biggest hurdle, when do the contracting files move to the rear?

I say the BG is stopped and the file is placed in the rear _AS long as there is room (60mm in our case) for them to do so...

More thoughts?

Madcam

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:58 am

fatismo wrote:Sorry bit confused by your reply??

Anyway check out this thread

viewtopic.php?t=8919&postdays=0&postord ... s&start=20

This is about interpenitrating friends and basically says that you can start your wheel straight away and it is no counted in going through the troops above your LH when the get to the LH on the right the left side of the charging LH contracts behing the right side to form a column, then continues to wheel in a cloum

Front edge only and then only if wheeling out from line..... see the further pictures.

Madcam.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:02 am

But doesn't only the front base of the column perform the wheel? Then it moves forward, other basing following and wheeling when they reach the "point of wheel?"

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:15 am

Actually no.... At least not that I can tell...

Pg 43-44 don't actually tell you how the remaining bases are moved. Only how to measure the movement of the front elements. The aforementioned discussion about wheeling out of line IIRC only covered the front corner being used to determine whether or not the BG was interpenetration unduely....

Madcam.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:18 am

Indeed, once in column you kink. Also, the wording on contracting when charging and my recollection of pictures from long ago on charging in tight spaces is that it looked like contracted as they moved into the final position.

(What I find most disturbing about this situation is that the LH are facing to the side edge of their bases.)

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:27 am

MikeK wrote:
(What I find most disturbing about this situation is that the LH are facing to the side edge of their bases.)

Madcam's excuse is the quality paint job makers up for the error of pointing.

awesum4 · Post by **awesum4** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:27 am

I would have thought the easiest way is for the light horse to simply move straight forward into contact. Its not a flank charge so one element from each side fights at normal factors. During the manouver phase the light horse then pivot around to line up in front of their target. Simple really.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:32 am

So a few thoughts.

1) It is possible to be somewhere, where you can't charge because that's just the way it is. Life happens.

2) THe issue is the other unit of LH not the Foot. As we've established the foot are not effected by the wheel.

3) You are a difficult child and I can't wait to be your umpire.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:39 am

Yes, I will test even the patience of Job.

However, You'll be lucky in getting me AND Mike, so brush up on your lawyering....

Still... I think I really only need the confirmation that after the contraction, there HAS to be enough room for the BG to fit. Wheels aside, when the charging BG meets friends to force it to contract... Those bases that are moving to rear must fit_at the time they are moved_ for the charge to be legal.

Yes or no?

Madcam.

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:41 am

hazelbark wrote:
MikeK wrote:
(What I find most disturbing about this situation is that the LH are facing to the side edge of their bases.)
Madcam's excuse is the quality paint job makers up for the error of pointing.

they are facing the front, just look at the direction of the bow. As everyone knows lh don't charge but rather move up and down the line shooting there arrows.

Madcam.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:30 pm

MikeK wrote:Also, the wording on contracting when charging and my recollection of pictures from long ago on charging in tight spaces is that it looked like contracted as they moved into the final position.

That is my view. (And is consistent with contracting in general - in normal moves some troops cannot contract at all unless they move forward, and this represents the contractors falling in behind the others as they move forward. There is no reason that I can see to suppose that dropping back a file during a charge would be different).

This aside, from the rules lawyer point of view, there is nothing in the rules that says a contraction in this or any other circumstance must be made at the start of the move. (Unlike expansions).

madcam2us · Post by **madcam2us** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:15 pm

RBS...

Good to know that contracting during a charge takes place whenever and only the final position counts....

This then makes it so that there must be space to fit those files so contracted behind the main BG otherwise no contracting, Right? (Yes, seems obvious, so call me Mr. Obvious)

Going back to our first picture...

Beginning of wheel

base completes wheel and makes contact

2nd base completes wheel and moves into position

3rd base completes contraction and moves into position

4th & final base completes contraction and moves into position

As long as the 3 & 4 base fit in their final positions everything is ok.... What happens if their isn't enough room?

Can the charge be completed if bases 1 & 2 hit, but there wasn't room for bases 3 & 4 to form up?

Madcam.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:41 pm

madcam2us wrote:As long as the 3 & 4 base fit in their final positions everything is ok.... What happens if their isn't enough room?

Good question.

If the column isn't fully formed till the end of the move then a kink cannot be justified. Of course, if it can be formed earlier in the move then the BG might fit by kinking at the point of wheeling. This, however, seems unlikely to be possible in this example.

I guess that if they won't fit, the charge is cancelled.

Lycanthropic · Post by **Lycanthropic** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:03 am

You can wheel backwards pivoting on a front corner? And then slide sideways in a charge?
Well thats what I see in those 4 photo's.
I know everytime someone mentions 'geometry' I want to slap them with a phonebook, but LH isn't the Tardiss.............