Charges across rough terrain/streams

[Schweetness101]

I have a game mechanics question. My understanding is that the terrain of the unit's square that is receiving the charge determines the terrain modifiers for the combat.

If a unit charges from an open square into a rough terrain square they will be fighting in rough terrain, even though visually their unit is still in open terrain. That's fine, I understand how that works.

My question is, if say a heavy unit is standing in a disordering stream or rough terrain, and charges out of it into open terrain, or if they charge across rough terrain into open terrain, do they suffer any kind of disordering penalty from having been initially in rough terrain?

Basically I'm asking this because I am confused about how to make the best use of rivers.

All rivers/streams are non-open, which has some POA impact effects for mounted and chariot charging units. But, some rivers are also moderately or severely disordering (the tooltip will tell you), and some aren't disordering at all.

So, if I have an enemy who is standing behind a river in open terrain, if I charge them into their open terrain is it like the river doesn't matter because it's just a normal charge into open terrain attack, or does the river have some effect? Even if it is a non-disordering river? Should you defend rivers by standing in or behind them? Is there some advantage to standing in a non-disordering (but still non-open) river tile for say heavy infantry because then all charging cav will lose their impact POA bonus?

Sorry that's kind of a lot of questions all wrapped up in one topic there. Thanks for any help!

[rbodleyscott]

They will suffer terrain disorder for whichever is worse of the terrain in the square they are in or the square they are charging. The enemy being charged will only Suffer terrain disorder for the square they are in. However, the combat will count as “not in open terrain” for both units. (See manual, section 17.4)

It follows that troops who would be disordered by the stream should defend it from the square behind the stream. For troops who would not be disordered by the stream, it makes no difference whether they defend from the stream square or the square behind it.

[MVP7]

One important thing to note is that you can easily cause an impasse if you defend behind a stream with heavy infantry/cavalry. The enemy might move into the stream and then neither side has the incentive to charge and detaching would require falling back which risks cohesion loss. I usually avoid defending streams if that impasse is not specifically what I want.

[Karvon]

My irritation with streams is the unpredictable response lights and cavalry exhibit when deployed to defend. Sometimes they will hold the position, and other times they will decide to evade creating holes in the line.

[Schweetness101]

They will suffer terrain disorder for whichever is worse of the terrain in the square they are in or the square they are charging. The enemy being charged will only Suffer terrain disorder for the square they are in. However, the combat will count as “not in open terrain” for both units. (See manual, section 17.4)

and does the disorder for the unit charging from/across the stream go only for the charge, and then they are in the enemy that is receiving the charges open terrain, or are they disordered for subsequent melee phases as well?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Also for the melee.

[MVP7]

How does disorder work if heavy infantry A pushes heavy infantry B off rough ground and moves into the rough itself so now heavy infantry A is standing in rough and heavy infantry b in the open? Does the B become steady when pushed into open?

[SnuggleBunnies]

Yes, B would then be steady

[rbodleyscott]

Yes, B would then be steady

It depends whether A or B was the original attacker. If B was the original attacker, it would be flagged as the attacker for the entire combat, and hence would still be disordered. There is no particular logic to this, except the way that the attacker/defender in a combat is flagged in the system.

[MVP7]

Yes, B would then be steady

It depends whether A or B was the original attacker. If B was the original attacker, it would be flagged as the attacker for the entire combat, and hence would still be disordered. There is no particular logic to this, except the way that the attacker/defender in a combat is flagged in the system.

Thanks, that's one of the scenarios I have been wondering about. Pretty rare to get a push with follow from defender, does it even happen if the defender isn't raw or undrilled?

[rbodleyscott]

Yes, B would then be steady

It depends whether A or B was the original attacker. If B was the original attacker, it would be flagged as the attacker for the entire combat, and hence would still be disordered. There is no particular logic to this, except the way that the attacker/defender in a combat is flagged in the system.

Thanks, that's one of the scenarios I have been wondering about. Pretty rare to get a push with follow from defender, does it even happen if the defender isn't raw or undrilled?

Actually, thinking about it, it doesn't happen at all.

[Schweetness101]

kind of a specific follow up:

If I charge my unit A from open terrain, into an enemy unit B in rough terrain, and so A is now fighting in rough terrain (but visually in open terrain), and then another enemy unit C charges into A from open terrain, into the open terrain that A occupies, is unit C now fighting in open terrain (because it went from and to open squares) or in rough terrain (because the unit it charged had charged into rough terrain and is considered to be fighting in the rough terrain)?

If the latter, could this potentially stack up across the map as each unit was attacking a unit that had attacked a unit...that was ultimately in rough terrain?

Sorry if that's really confusing I tried to make it clear.

thanks

[SnuggleBunnies]

C would be in Open terrain.

[Schweetness101]

ok thanks