Legion Sizes and Velite Division

[BrianC]

Hey Guys,

I'm playing another game on the weekend and am fielding the Mid Republican Romans. I was hoping someone could clear up a question for me regarding the army list. People have been suggesting that you can have BGs of 6 in a Roman legion but the army list says the following:

1) 2 BGs of 4 bases of Hastati and Principe + 1 BG of 2 bases of triarii = 10 bases

2) 2 BGs of 8 bases of Hastati and Principe + 1 BG of 4 bases of triarii = 20 bases

This seems to indicate clearly to me that you may only choose one of the above for a legion, either BGs of 4 or 8, nothing else? Also can you combine the velite into 1 BG of 8? Or do they have to be fielded separately?

If I field 3 legions of 1 above, am I allowed to combine 2 (4 base BGs ) of velite into an 8 Base BG and 1 (4 base) BG for the 3rd legion? Or do they have to all be separate (4 base ) BGs?

And I take it that you still should organize your forces into legions? As opposed to a loose formation that meets the criteria above?

Thanks for any guidance,

Brian

[MattDower]

I'm a newbie to the rules, and struggling with the same questions - so perhaps my comments don't help much, but....

I can see the elegance of fielding balanced legions, however I am a bit torn since different unit sizes do work differently in the rules.

In particular a 2 base triarii BG will explode after 1 casualty - even if elite
So the next permissable size is 4 bases which require 16 bases of Hatati and Prinipates and 8 Velites.
This means that you need to buy core troops in blocks of about 252 points. (if average armoured)
So if you have 2 legions and 3 commanders you have used 639 points without being able to afford any other troops if, like me, you play in 25mm
If you take 1 legion and 3 commanders you have spent 389 points. If you then take the maximum permissable optional troops (8 cavalry, 12 allied infantry, + 8 other 7 point bases) you have only spent 625 points.

These limitations effectively give you NO option. You pretty much need to field 3 small legions to give you the ability to produce a balanced force at 650 points.

Matt

[thefrenchjester]

Hi ,

I usualy use the Mid rep .
the BGs as follow

1x8 velites
1x4 velites
1x4 velites

8x4 Hastati and Princeps "Average" ( yes I play them in " quinconce " at the deployement ,visual effect guaranted

2x4 Triari " superior"

2x4 Cavalry

commanded by an "IC "

the proportion is good ( 1T for 4 Hand P , 2 V for 4 Hand P )
in my idea
the maniples are regrouped in tactical or strategical use , depending of the terrain and enemy

regards

thefrenchjester

[LambertSimnel]

In particular a 2 base triarii BG will explode after 1 casualty - even if elite

Matt

Note that it is not easy to get one casualty against quality troops fighting 1 wide, so long as you can protect them from being overlapped and from suffering converging missile fire, because ifs you can get the +2 on the casualty roll for missile combat/not losing in melee, then even 2 hits per front line base can't kill anyone.

When fighting at - POA against average troops (for example in impact vs normal principes or phalangites) Superior triarii have about a 1 in 10 chance of taking a casualty, while Elite triarii have about a 1 in 11 chance of taking a casualty.

At level POAs things are, naturally, better; 1 in 14 for Superior and 1 in 18 for Elite when fighting Average troops.

Also, 26 points for 2 Superior triarii is a relatively cheap way to both give rear support to two 4 base Hastati/Principes BGs and boost your BG count to delay army rout; (the only cheaper way in the MRR list is the single allowed BG of Ligurians). You might even begin to suspect that the rules-givers are trying to incentivise using triarii in historical manner.

[HannibalBarca]

Matt,

You say that there is no room for flexibility in Republican Roman army building. Maybe you are just not open-minded enough.

You can have the legions laid out in the way you suggest, for the points you state using the larger or smaller of the options. Have you thought however of having one large legion (based on 4 triarii) and one small legion (based on 2 triarii)? Each legion must be correctly proportioned, but I can see no reason why you cannot use both allowable formations together. Depending on the scale, the larger legion could represent two legions banded together, or alternatively the smaller legion could represent an undermanned legion.

You could also have a smaller legion arranged as eight Hastati and two Triarii (plus velites): while the ratios of bases have to be right, you don't have to use the number of BG's suggested for an individual legion. A larger legion could equally be four BGs of four Hastati and one BG of four Triarii (plus velites), or two BGs of six Hastati each, one BG of four Hastati and two BGs of two Triarii each (plus velites). It's the base ratio within each legion that must be correct.

What about the options for armour, and the possibility of upgrading or downgrading your legions? The points difference for a base of armoured hastati from a veteran legion versus a base of hastati from a legion of raw recruits is rather significant! Of course if you start from the premise that: "All my legions must be a certain quality with a certain armour and protected/unprotected leves," then you do not have a great deal of options. But if you do, it is you who has just removed all your options. There may not be a great deal of troop types to choose, but a Mid-Republican legionary himself is one of the most customisable troops in the game!

As for velites/leves in the initial question: to me it seems that you cannot have bases of six. Leves/velites are a part of the legion, so for a "big" legion you have eight bases, which can be one BG of eight, or two BGs of four each. A small legion must have one BG of four bases.

[BrianC]

Matt,

You say that there is no room for flexibility in Republican Roman army building. Maybe you are just not open-minded enough.

You can have the legions laid out in the way you suggest, for the points you state using the larger or smaller of the options. Have you thought however of having one large legion (based on 4 triarii) and one small legion (based on 2 triarii)? Each legion must be correctly proportioned, but I can see no reason why you cannot use both allowable formations together. Depending on the scale, the larger legion could represent two legions banded together, or alternatively the smaller legion could represent an undermanned legion.

You could also have a smaller legion arranged as eight Hastati and two Triarii (plus velites): while the ratios of bases have to be right, you don't have to use the number of BG's suggested for an individual legion. A larger legion could equally be four BGs of four Hastati and one BG of four Triarii (plus velites), or two BGs of six Hastati each, one BG of four Hastati and two BGs of two Triarii each (plus velites). It's the base ratio within each legion that must be correct.

What about the options for armour, and the possibility of upgrading or downgrading your legions? The points difference for a base of armoured hastati from a veteran legion versus a base of hastati from a legion of raw recruits is rather significant! Of course if you start from the premise that: "All my legions must be a certain quality with a certain armour and protected/unprotected leves," then you do not have a great deal of options. But if you do, it is you who has just removed all your options. There may not be a great deal of troop types to choose, but a Mid-Republican legionary himself is one of the most customisable troops in the game!

As for velites/leves in the initial question: to me it seems that you cannot have bases of six. Leves/velites are a part of the legion, so for a "big" legion you have eight bases, which can be one BG of eight, or two BGs of four each. A small legion must have one BG of four bases.

And that was where I was going and trying to get some official reply. If you have a BG size of 6 Hastati/Princepe then you must have a BG of 3 bases of Velite which is illegal, and even the text indicates only either 4 or 8 base BGs. And you are right regarding the flexibility. I tend to like superior troops in the front line with more average troops in a supporting roll and to protect flanks. I think the Romans are a good solid army. The only negative I can offer is that their cavalry arm is a little weak. But that can be augmented with allies.

[HannibalBarca]

Well it's nowt official, but as I read it you can break it down into these steps:

* Pick troops for your legion in the correct ratio. They must all be in the same legion type (common, veteran or raw) and have the same armour options. Ensuring a legal number of Triarii (multiples of two) dictates that the number of bases must be either 8:2:4 Hastati:Triarii:Leves/Velites or a whole multiple thereof (16:4:8, 24:6:12, 32:8:16, and so on).
* Arrange these member bases of this legion into a number of BGs of any legal permutations allowed. Possible historically-relevant BG formations are suggested, but not compulsory.
* Repeat, separately, for any other legion.


(So, I suppose if you wanted to field your army as one collosal legion (i.e. 24:6:12 or above), you could have velites in sixes, but you'd be severely curtailed in your ability to have any variation in your troops, as they'd all (or mostly) be one legion, and it'd be a bit of a boring army, as Matt says. )

[marioslaz]

I tend to like superior troops in the front line with more average troops in a supporting roll and to protect flanks.

This is the opposite historical general used to do. But, more relevant, is incoherent with rules because in this way you forfeit rear support, that is a valuable +1 in cohesion tests when you loose a melee.

About army list. I suggest you use legions of 4 Hastati, 4 Principes, 4 Velites. 2 bases' BG of Triarii are too weak, so I suggest you join BG of 2 legions in one BG only. Instead you can use a legion with 8 bases each for Hastati, Principes and Velites, of course. If you have chance, you can keep Triarii in 2nd rank, so to give rear support; you have chance to do this if you can keep your front short without risk to be outflanked. Where you want to attack, I suggest you use a general with the BG and the support of triarii, with a net +2 in every cohesion test. I found this very relevant. If you plan to attack, BG of 8 bases for Hastati and Principes are the better solution, but not in every terrain, of course. If you plan to defend BG of 4 bases are more flexibles, but still it depends on terrain.
Hastati should be average and protected
Principes should be average and protected/armored
Triari should be superior and armored
Leves or Velites should be average unprotected
Keep in mind that I'm an historical player, I don't take part to tournament, but I think this is a good balance between strength and cost. Anyway, if your opponents have an army with a lot of cavalry, give it up.

At last, quince quonce formation was just a setting formation for roman armies, and anyway it was performed at maniples level. In this game has not meanings to do so.

[philqw78]

quince quonce formation

checkerboard???

[ars_belli]

quince quonce formation

checkerboard???

Yep, I think he is referencing the so-called 'quincunx' formation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_infantry_tactics
More on the etymology of the term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quincunx

Cheers,
Scott

[mikekh]

These questions were discussed about a month ago and the definitive reply from the designers was made into a sticky post and I'm sure it was in this section of the forum.
It seems to have gone!
Does anyone know where it is?

Mike

[marioslaz]

checkerboard???

Yes, sorry. I'm italian and sometimes I make errors in english.

Bye,
Mario.

[willb]

These questions were discussed about a month ago and the definitive reply from the designers was made into a sticky post and I'm sure it was in this section of the forum.
It seems to have gone!
Does anyone know where it is?

Mike

probably lost due to the server problem. about one months worth of posts were lost prior to the date of the forum going down.

[ars_belli]

These questions were discussed about a month ago and the definitive reply from the designers was made into a sticky post and I'm sure it was in this section of the forum.
It seems to have gone!
Does anyone know where it is?

Mike

probably lost due to the server problem. about one months worth of posts were lost prior to the date of the forum going down.

It has been reposted to the forum as a sticky: viewtopic.php?t=9032

Cheers,
Scott