Wheeling in a confined space

MattDower · Post by **MattDower** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:15 pm

How do units wheel in a comfined space - e.g. with units to either flank?

To give an example, Three BG of infantry, in 2 ranks, are in a line.
The middle one wants to wheel to face down the line - while the other 2 stay still.

1. Can it wheel from its starting position, even though the rear corner of the outside bases would pass through its neighbour?
or
2. Would the middle unit need to advance 2 base depths to clear its neighbours before starting its wheel?

Sorry if this question is answered elsewhere - I can't find the answer.

Matt

carlos · Post by **carlos** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:45 pm

This has been answered before but I can't find the topic. The answer is "1" as long as the wheeling unit completely clears its neighbours so no bases are over each other.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 1:46 pm

If the infantry are in the middle of a line then the answer is no. They can't wheel out of the line. If there is space to one side then they can wheel and take advantage of the shift of upto 1/2 a base to avoid 'clipping' friends.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:14 pm

If the infantry are in the middle of a line then the answer is no

Is that not the DBMM answer hammy?

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:24 pm

It may be, but it is also the FoG one I believe. OTOH I think Carlos has given the DBM answer

IIRC there is nothing in the rules that allows a BG to interpenetrate another whilst wheeling (unless it is an otherwise permitted interpenetration, of course).

Ghaznavid · Post by **Ghaznavid** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:33 pm

hammy wrote:If the infantry are in the middle of a line then the answer is no. They can't wheel out of the line. If there is space to one side then they can wheel and take advantage of the shift of upto 1/2 a base to avoid 'clipping' friends.

Hmm isn't that at least partially contradicting your own answers here: viewtopic.php?t=6889?

carlos · Post by **carlos** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:44 pm

Yeah, that's the thread I was thinking about. I let my opponents do this, perhaps I shouldn't but it feels a bit too restrictive in my opinion.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:46 pm

Ghaznavid wrote:
hammy wrote:If the infantry are in the middle of a line then the answer is no. They can't wheel out of the line. If there is space to one side then they can wheel and take advantage of the shift of upto 1/2 a base to avoid 'clipping' friends.
Hmm isn't that at least partially contradicting your own answers here: viewtopic.php?t=6889?

I thought that the other thread says the same thing or at least says that I had been playing this wrongly and having checked the rules it is not allowed for a BG to wheel out of a BG sized gap.

You can shift sideways to avoid clipping but only if there is space to shift into.

MattDower · Post by **MattDower** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:47 pm

hammy wrote:
Ghaznavid wrote:Hmm isn't that at least partially contradicting your own answers here: viewtopic.php?t=6889?
I thought that the other thread says the same thing or at least says that I had been playing this wrongly and having checked the rules it is not allowed for a BG to wheel out of a BG sized gap.

You can shift sideways to avoid clipping but only if there is space to shift into.

I understand the need for games to have simple clearly understood and applied rules and accept you answer.

That said, the aguments in the earlier (linked) post do make sense.

I will be playing with 25mm figures so the imact is greater than with 15mm.
Indeed, some units that would be less effected in reality are penalised the heaviest; undrilled Medium Infantry or Cavalry spring to mind. Cavalry in 2 ranke would need to advance straight 80mm before starting its wheel.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:27 pm

MattDower wrote:
hammy wrote:
Ghaznavid wrote:Hmm isn't that at least partially contradicting your own answers here: viewtopic.php?t=6889?
I thought that the other thread says the same thing or at least says that I had been playing this wrongly and having checked the rules it is not allowed for a BG to wheel out of a BG sized gap.

You can shift sideways to avoid clipping but only if there is space to shift into.
I understand the need for games to have simple clearly understood and applied rules and accept you answer.

That said, the aguments in the earlier (linked) post do make sense.

I will be playing with 25mm figures so the imact is greater than with 15mm.
Indeed, some units that would be less effected in reality are penalised the heaviest; undrilled Medium Infantry or Cavalry spring to mind. Cavalry in 2 ranke would need to advance straight 80mm before starting its wheel.

True but only if you really must wheel the odd BG out of the middle of a block of BGs and leave the others where they are.

If you have:

111222

Then BG 1 can wheel left and advance because even though the rear of the BG will clip BG 2 BG 1 can shift to avoid this. BG 2 can wheel right on the same basis. It is only an issue if you have:

111222333

and for some reason want to wheel 2 while leaving 1 and 3 in place.

Often drilled troops would be able to advance and turn 90 anyway and thus avoid the issue anyway.

Yes it is difficult for undrilled troops in the middle of a large formation to do anything other than advance or stay put. To me that seems reasonable.

IanB3406 · Post by **IanB3406** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:41 pm

Doesn't make sense to me.....why worry about all the intermediate geometry of wheels. Do you really think a BG of 1000 to 4000 men is actually in a strict wheel anyway? So if BG's are close in tight I gotta micro measure every bit of the wheel to make sure the back rear corner doesn't pass another unit? Really? BTW - for small battle groups the corner kicks out further, a 2 element Cav BG would need an additional 32mm to wheel - almost another base width. Of course at that point you are turning a column which is allowed to kink them I assume. 10mm for a 2 wide BG of cav.

Ian

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:03 pm

IanB3406 wrote:Doesn't make sense to me.....why worry about all the intermediate geometry of wheels. Do you really think a BG of 1000 to 4000 men is actually in a strict wheel anyway? So if BG's are close in tight I gotta micro measure every bit of the wheel to make sure the back rear corner doesn't pass another unit? Really? BTW - for small battle groups the corner kicks out further, a 2 element Cav BG would need an additional 32mm to wheel - almost another base width. Of course at that point you are turning a column which is allowed to kink them I assume. 10mm for a 2 wide BG of cav.

Ian

I am not saying that I agree totally with the rule, just what the rule is.

That said I have never had a situation where this rule has restricted my options.

batesmotel · Post by **batesmotel** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:03 pm

hammy wrote: ...

I am not saying that I agree totally with the rule, just what the rule is.

That said I have never had a situation where this rule has restricted my options.

I see a mention of updating the FAQ with a ruling on this in the other thread but didn't find anything in the FAQ. Was the discussion never held or were the current rules decided to be clear enough to not require a clarification?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:19 pm

"The distance moved during the wheel is taken as the straight line from the starting position to the ending position of the moving front corner"
P43

If that is the case you do not overlap any other bases when moving out of a line. The moving flank does need to get completely clear though.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:12 pm

That bit is just telling you how to measure the distance.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:34 pm

That bit is just telling you how to measure the distance

I know. But if that is how the move is measured and how you move it would seem, following the same logic, that you can move out of the line.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:45 pm

Follow that logic and it would not matter if there was impassable terrain part way through your move as long as you ended beyond it ...

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:00 pm

But you have to measure around impassable, not via the shortest route.

hammy · Post by **hammy** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 10:43 pm

batesmotel wrote:
hammy wrote: ...

I am not saying that I agree totally with the rule, just what the rule is.

That said I have never had a situation where this rule has restricted my options.
I see a mention of updating the FAQ with a ruling on this in the other thread but didn't find anything in the FAQ. Was the discussion never held or were the current rules decided to be clear enough to not require a clarification?

I believe that the rules were considered to be clear as the issue is from players of another game where there was a rule that specifically alows this action. Much like there is (I think) no rule in FoG allowing premeasuring which is prohibited by a rule in other games.

SirGarnet · Post by **SirGarnet** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:30 am

I would second that it is not clear and in fact is unexpected not only for players of many other rules as well as new players with historical knowledge as to what the troops actually represent, intervals and capacity to redress ranks, how troops wheel on a stationary pivot, etc.

Explaining that troops in the middle of a battle line should not be wheeling out by themselves is to me an entirely convincing rationale, but it is still not clear.