Roman triarii's texture error

[Dux Limitis]

@rbodleyscott I don't know ho to upload a picture in the topic so I'll explain this as detailed as possible.I already reported this in earlier time(in my steam comment),roman triarii wears black clothes,use black sheilds in game.You told me that is not a error or a bug.But,last evening when I was read the game's manual book,I had seen the roman triarii's in the earlier version really wears red clothes,use red sheilds just like most of history illustrations,you can see them clearly in the manual page129-131,so I doubt triarii wears black clothes,use black sheilds（default,please note this,it's default,whether it's on the player side or the enemy's side） in the later version(and now) infact is a texture error.

[Dux Limitis]

And another problem.In custom battle/campaigns,quick battles,the AI will not formation their army in depolyed turn historically like in the epic battles,especially of the army who have pike units in their army list(like the successor kingdoms,pontus,and epeiros),they will Inexplicably to depolyed their thureophoroi and other spear units,swords units in the middle of their formation,the pike units are dispersed on the line,some times they will been deployed on the flanks....(really not historical,in history they will deployed their pikes on the middle of their line,other melee units will deployed on the flanks of their line,just like what you made in the epic battle mode,especially in battle of pydna.) I think maybe it's the AI's problem,do you have any way to solve it in the future?

[rbodleyscott]

@rbodleyscott I don't know ho to upload a picture in the topic so I'll explain this as detailed as possible.I already reported this in earlier time(in my steam comment),roman triarii wears black clothes,use black sheilds in game.You told me that is not a error or a bug.But,last evening when I was read the game's manual book,I had seen the roman triarii's in the earlier version really wears red clothes,use red sheilds just like most of history illustrations,you can see them clearly in the manual page129-131,so I doubt triarii wears black clothes,use black sheilds（default,please note this,it's default,whether it's on the player side or the enemy's side） in the later version(and now) infact is a texture error.

As I said before, it is not an error, it is artistic licence, for the purpose of making the units easier to distinguish from the veteran hastati/principes. I expect the artist changed them after the screenshots were taken.

As I also said before, the colour of Roman tunics is in fact uncertain, even for the Imperial period. Red or white are likely, but it isn’t known whether other colours were also used. Mid-Republican legionaries supplied their own equipment If they could afford to do so, so uniform colours are in fact unlikely for this period.

The default textures are used for either side if there is only one Roman army in the battle, but for Roman civil wars there is an alternate set of textures for the AI side.

[rbodleyscott]

And another problem.In custom battle/campaigns,quick battles,the AI will not formation their army in depolyed turn historically like in the epic battles,especially of the army who have pike units in their army list(like the successor kingdoms,pontus,and epeiros),they will Inexplicably to depolyed their thureophoroi and other spear units,swords units in the middle of their formation,the pike units are dispersed on the line,some times they will been deployed on the flanks....(really not historical,in history they will deployed their pikes on the middle of their line,other melee units will deployed on the flanks of their line,just like what you made in the epic battle mode,especially in battle of pydna.) I think maybe it's the AI's problem,do you have any way to solve it in the future?

The game will preferentially deploy Medium Foot in parts of the line that are facing rough/difficult terrain.

While the phalanx was usually deployed in one block, at Magnesia there were cavalry between the Silver Shields and the main phalanx, and Pyrrhos of Epeiros deployed Italian foot between the battalions of the phalanx.

[Paul59]

@rbodleyscott I don't know ho to upload a picture in the topic so I'll explain this as detailed as possible.I already reported this in earlier time(in my steam comment),roman triarii wears black clothes,use black sheilds in game.You told me that is not a error or a bug.But,last evening when I was read the game's manual book,I had seen the roman triarii's in the earlier version really wears red clothes,use red sheilds just like most of history illustrations,you can see them clearly in the manual page129-131,so I doubt triarii wears black clothes,use black sheilds（default,please note this,it's default,whether it's on the player side or the enemy's side） in the later version(and now) infact is a texture error.

When FOG II was originally released, I am sure it had the red (and blue for the cool side set) Triarii textures, hence the red Triarii pictures in the Manual. These were then changed in a later patch to the black (and yellow, for the cool side set) textures that we have now. So this is definitely not a bug, but a conscious decision by the designers.

You might disagree with that decision, as do I, but please do not call it a bug. It is not!

FYI, because the game will always give the Roman side the "warm" side textures (ie; the black texture for the Triarii), you will only ever see the yellow Triarii textures when both sides are Roman, or possibly if one side is Spartan.

[Patrick Ward]

The only potential error with the Triarii is that they should have the same coloured shields as the rest of the Legion since this was used for identification. I'm not sure why you're complaining about the black costume while not complaining about the red, blue or yellow. Non of them are based in historical fact because there is NO historical fact. It's Hollywood and artistic representations. There are surviving shields but they're not all contemporary and are assumed to be presentation/decorative so can not be considered representative. And their tunics are more likely to be either plain linen coloured or, if they were ever red, became faded pink, since the most common red dye for mass production, madder root, faded very quickly.

Funnily enough theres actually more written 'evidence' for the blue of the marines and maybe Praetorians than the red of the legionaires. (I've made the Praetorians purple to distinuish them more obviously so you've as much reason to say they're wrong as the Triarii). I mean we DO know that at times the only thing that disinguished a Roman soldier from his barbarian counterpart was their shield. But what colour that shield is we don't know. Period frescoes depicting gladiators shows shields of all sorts of patterns and colours.

There are copies of medieval manuscripts that suggest colours from a very particular period but there are multiple copies and all have differences in colour representation. At least they do suggest that for those periods particular formations had their own shield designs for recognition. You likely wouldn't get some mix of crazy patterns and colours in the same legion.

So again, the main issue with the Triarii is that they should have the same colour shields as the rest of their army.

Obviously the above is my interpretation based on research for this game and on changes made for gameplay and usability. Feel free to correct me.

[melm]

At least in game legionary and auxiliary has different shield colour. If we accept that triarii can have different colour from principes as black.

From vision effect aspect, black chainmail with black shield may look like lacking colour contrast. Why not give them grey or brown shields?

[Dux Limitis]

The only potential error with the Triarii is that they should have the same coloured shields as the rest of the Legion since this was used for identification. I'm not sure why you're complaining about the black costume while not complaining about the red, blue or yellow. Non of them are based in historical fact because there is NO historical fact. It's Hollywood and artistic representations. There are surviving shields but they're not all contemporary and are assumed

I think,I had seen the surviving roman scutum shields from the Dura Europos,it's red,really.

[melm]

As description says: This shield is the only known surviving example of the examples known as a scutum. It was found at Dura Europos. However, we can not rule out that Roman may use other colours for their scutum as later Notitia Dignitatum shows.

BTW, I feel this one is strongly eastern-stylized. It doesn't look "authentically-roman" to me.

[rbodleyscott]

As description says: This shield is the only known surviving example of the examples known as a scutum. It was found at Dura Europos. However, we can not rule out that Roman may use other colours for their scutum as later Notitia Dignitatum shows.

BTW, I feel this one is strongly eastern-stylized. It doesn't look "authentically-roman" to me.

Agreed, or it may be some sort of votive, ceremonial or parade shield.

Either way, assuming that all legionary shields were red because the one surviving example is red would be ludicrously statistically invalid.

Also the Dura Europos shield is almost entirely irrelevant to triarii shields, because it dates from 350 years after the triarii were abolished. Trying to deduce the colour of triarii shields from it is like trying to deduce the "uniforms" of the Thirty Years War from a single example of a modern infantry uniform.

As you say, we know for certain that legionary shields from 150 years after the Dura Europos shield were not all (or even mostly) red. For example, the limitanei shields in the game have blue backgrounds, and all come from eastern frontier legions shown in the Notitia. (These are pseudocomitatenses units with numbered Legion names - e.g. Legio VI Parthica.)

Legio VI Parthica.jpg (7.2 KiB) Viewed 2902 times

So we certainly cannot assume that shields from 350 years before the Dura Europos shield were all red.

As Pat says, our research goes a lot deeper than the common illustrations of Romans etc. that you will find in books and on the internet. These are (at best) based on best guess reconstructions, at a particular point in the timeline, and certainly should not be assumed to represent the appearance of all soldiers of a particular type at all dates.

For example all (or almost all) depictions you will see of Huns are based on one single reconstruction, which in turn was based on contemporary literary descriptions and no contemporary pictorial representation whatsoever. If any Huns ever actually looked exactly like that reconstruction, it is pretty unlikely that they all did. This is the danger of taking modern illustrations as definitively historical, and attempting to apply them over a wider historical period than the reconstruction itself was ever intended to represent.

Do we think that triarii probably had black shields? No, we don't, but the absence of any reliable information on the colour of Mid-Republican Roman shields gives us the licence to make the game easier to play by distinguishing them clearly from the other unit types in the army.

[Paul59]

I would like to make clear that my opposition to the black (and yellow) Triarii uniforms is purely aesthetic, I just don't like the look of them. To my mind they look too jarringly different from the rest of the army. It might even be better if the black and yellow textures were swapped around, with the yellow textures going to the "warm" (Red) side, and the black textures going to the "cool" (blue) side. I am sure that with some other models (Veteran African Spearman, Citizen Hoplite etc) black is used as a "cool" side colour anyway.

I don't see the necessity of further differentiating the Triarii visually from the Hastati/Principes when they already have a different model, animation and have half as many models in a unit! But then I am definitely not one of those players that want every difference in units/terrain made clear by blindingly obvious visual clues.

I have exactly the same understanding of the archaeological evidence as Pat and Richard, and agree that Roman legionary uniforms and shields could have been many different colours, although there was probably some degree of uniformity within a unit, especially with the shield colours/pattern.

Also, the "mix of crazy patterns and colours" with some of the TTMod+ Roman legionary shields have absolutely nothing to do with me. They were added by the the author of that mod, and are totally absent from my original TT Mod.


cheers

Paul

[Patrick Ward]

Also, the "mix of crazy patterns and colours" with some of the TTMod+ Roman legionary shields have absolutely nothing to do with me. They were added by the the author of that mod, and are totally absent from my original TT Mod.

Yeah and I've absolutely nothing against modders doing whatever they like. Thats what it's for.

And you're right, it might look better with the black and yellow reversed.

[melm]

I guess designer decided with black armor with black shield because of raw legion's white tunic with white shield. Kind of symmetric. :p

[Patrick Ward]

I guess designer decided with black armor with black shield because of raw legion's white tunic with white shield. Kind of symmetric. :p

erm no .. I explain most of it a few posts up from here .. but in many respects its was fairly arbitrary. Just needed to look different to the other red units and a little more hardcore. Black seemed to do it.