An unusual charge

[jfnavarro]

The battle group X have declared a charge on a light infantry battle group (A1 & A2). The LI makes a evade move, but this movement ended up in a partial interpenetration of battle group B.

The two bases in A1 are contacted on the rear edge, fighting in the impact combat with a -- POA.

but

How can A1 and A2 reform in the upcoming manoeuvre phase?
What can the group B do in his manoeuvre phase?


Thanks.

[lawrenceg]

The battle group X have declared a charge on a light infantry battle group (A1 & A2). The LI makes a evade move, but this movement ended up in a partial interpenetration of battle group B.

The two bases in A1 are contacted on the rear edge, fighting in the impact combat with a -- POA.

but

How can A1 and A2 reform in the upcoming manoeuvre phase?
What can the group B do in his manoeuvre phase?


Thanks.

A can't reform until after it moves, which it can't do while in combat. I think it could feed more bases into melee though, which would eventually clear the partial interpenetration.

B can't do any turns or wheels until the partial interpenetration is ended. In practice it is stuck there. See page 48.

Did you remember that LF can move a normal move +2MU to complete their interpenetration? (not normal move +VMD + 2 MU)

[jlopez]

I concur. Only the LF can interpenetrate the HF and not the other way around so nothing can be done until the enemy LH either break off or the LF rout. Ouch.

Julian

[IanB3406]

So the rear rank of LF won't partially interpentrate the Heavy foot BG? Such that the Heavy foot is split? It seems that's how we have don it in the past. It may not be right....but would mean the LH would charge the heavies or halt their charge.

[hammy]

Any bases of the LF BG that reach the HF BG are placed on the far side. Ones that fail to reach it are placed against the near side of the HF. Once in this combat life is not good for the HF, they are essentially tangled up but can't fight.

Messy

And the moral of this story is make sure that your HF are alwasy within 3MU of the front rank of LF who are likely to evade through them.

[babyshark]

I have seen this occur, usually when the LF are evading at an angle to the HF. The good news for the HF is that the LF aren't likely to be there very long . . . .




Marc

[BrianC]

You bring up a really good point Lawrence.

I would have missed the

"Did you remember that LF can move a normal move +2MU to complete their interpenetration? (not normal move +VMD + 2 MU)"

I would have used VMD + 2MU to get through friends. But your right it states normal move not VMD.

Thanks for that

Brian

[hammy]

You bring up a really good point Lawrence.

I would have missed the

"Did you remember that LF can move a normal move +2MU to complete their interpenetration? (not normal move +VMD + 2 MU)"

I would have used VMD + 2MU to get through friends. But your right it states normal move not VMD.

Thanks for that

Brian

Remember though that there are two possible types of interpenetration listed in the rules on p48.

The first is LF who can have an extra 2MU if this will bring them completely through the BG they are interpenetrating and this one is the one that is generally used when you move rather than evade although it can apply to evades.

The second "In all other cases....." rule can apply to LF where the +2MU is not relevant and means that any LF that reach the BG they are evading through move all the way through.

[philqw78]

The first is LF who can have an extra 2MU if this will bring them completely through the BG they are interpenetrating and this one is the one that is generally used when you move rather than evade although it can apply to evades.

I am now confused. In a normal move LF can add 2mu to get through troops they have reached. With what you have said above, if the LF roll a normal VMD move can they now add 2mu to pass through friends they reach.

[hammy]

The first is LF who can have an extra 2MU if this will bring them completely through the BG they are interpenetrating and this one is the one that is generally used when you move rather than evade although it can apply to evades.

I am now confused. In a normal move LF can add 2mu to get through troops they have reached. With what you have said above, if the LF roll a normal VMD move can they now add 2mu to pass through friends they reach.

There are TWO different rules for incomplete interpenetration.

One applies only to LF and if they can clear the BG they are interpenetrating with an extra move of 2 MU they do so. Most of the time this rule will be called into effect during movement, not evading. If I have a BG of LF that is 5MU from the front edge of a BG of HF and I want to move through it I make my 5MU move and haven't cleared the HF so can get an extra 2MU to pop me out as a nice neat whole BG.

The other rule is about bases that reach the BG they are trying to interpenetrate where only bases that actually get to the BG being interpenetrated are moved all the way through and ones that don't get there stay on the near side.

[philqw78]

So this didn't answer my question. Basically can evading LF ever add the plus 2mu?

[hammy]

So this didn't answer my question. Basically can evading LF ever add the plus 2mu?

Yes they can but in most of situations it is irrelevant.

Consider a BG of HF in two ranks so 30mm deep and a line of LF in two ranks so 40mm deep. If the front of the LF is 5.01 MU plus a base depth from the front of the HF and the LF are charged and evade normal distance then the LF will turn 180 and evade back 5MU. This will result in the rear rank of the LF partially interpenetrating the HF but none of the front rank actually getting there (the .01 MU is relevant). The LF will now be just under a base depth into the HF (say 19mm) so a move of another 2MU will mean that the LF have now moved 2MU plus 19mm beyond the front of the HF. If we are using imperial 1" MUs then this distance will be just over the 70mm depth of the LF and HF combined so the +2MU rule will apply. If the LF had been 5.(a bit more) MU from the HF then the extra 2MU won't get them through so it doesn't apply.

If on the other hand the HF are say pike so 60mm deep and the front of the LF are 4.99 MU plus a base depth from the front of the pike then if the LF evade 5MU all the ranks of the LF will end up partially in the pike and so will all pop through regardless of the +2MU or not as this is an "All other cases".

To be honest I think that the +2 MU rule could be deleted leaving only one interpenetration rule but adding to the all other cases rule a line to prevent light foot shooting if they do this.

[lawrenceg]

So this didn't answer my question. Basically can evading LF ever add the plus 2mu?

Another example is if the LF evade and roll -2 MU on their VMD. If this results in a partial interpenetration they can continue through up to normal move +2 MU if this would complete the interpenetration. In most cases this will be enough to get them through.

[BrianC]

So just to make sure I have this. LF add +2 to their move when interpenetrating, period? Not +2MU to their normal movement rate ( which is 5) but +2 MU to what ever their move is that turn including VMD?

The way that I interpreted NORMAL MOVE initially was either their maneuver phase movement or any evades. An evade with a VMD of say +2 gives them a move of 7, which is normal for them in this particular phase.

A normal move is not the same thing as movement rate. The wording is a little tricky and open to interpretation.

Brian

[hammy]

The number of times that a move however far is 'normal' will result in a BG being in a situation where another 2MU will complete the interpenetration but where the whole of the interpenetrating BG is not actually already partly interpenetrating are very few.

As the depth of a 2 deep HF formation is 30mm and the depth of a base of LF is 20mm and 2 MU is either 50mm or 50.8mm then unless the troops being interpentrated are less than 30mm deep (single ranked MF?) or the LF end their evade with their last rank between 0 and 0.8mm from the front of the troops they are interpenetrating the other cases situation is going to apply anyway.

If you are trying to evade through 2 deep MF or 2 deep cavalry or elephants or chariots the extra 2MU of move will NEVER have any impact on an evade move. If 2MU is enough for the LF to clear the other BG then all the bases must have partly interpenetrated so will go through anyway.

As I said before I think that the +2MU rule could be deleted without any negative impact on the game.

[lawrenceg]

So just to make sure I have this. LF add +2 to their move when interpenetrating, period? Not +2MU to their normal movement rate ( which is 5) but +2 MU to what ever their move is that turn including VMD?

The way that I interpreted NORMAL MOVE initially was either their maneuver phase movement or any evades. An evade with a VMD of say +2 gives them a move of 7, which is normal for them in this particular phase.

A normal move is not the same thing as movement rate. The wording is a little tricky and open to interpretation.

Brian

The rules say "... they do not exceed their normal move distance by more than 2 MUs."

(note it does not say "add +2 MU to their move")

In the VMD chart on page 47, only a 3 or 4 gives you "Normal distance".

If you throw a 6, you move normal distance +2 MU, you don't acquire a "normal distance" for this phase of 2 MU greater than your normal "normal distance".

IMO it is pretty clear that the intention is for normal move distance to be the distance given in the table on page 40 (described on p40 as "maximum distance" rather than "normal distance"). I don't think the term "movement rate" is used in the rules.

[BrianC]

So just to make sure I have this. LF add +2 to their move when interpenetrating, period? Not +2MU to their normal movement rate ( which is 5) but +2 MU to what ever their move is that turn including VMD?

The way that I interpreted NORMAL MOVE initially was either their maneuver phase movement or any evades. An evade with a VMD of say +2 gives them a move of 7, which is normal for them in this particular phase.

A normal move is not the same thing as movement rate. The wording is a little tricky and open to interpretation.

Brian

The rules say "... they do not exceed their normal move distance by more than 2 MUs."

(note it does not say "add +2 MU to their move")

In the VMD chart on page 47, only a 3 or 4 gives you "Normal distance".

If you throw a 6, you move normal distance +2 MU, you don't acquire a "normal distance" for this phase of 2 MU greater than your normal "normal distance".

IMO it is pretty clear that the intention is for normal move distance to be the distance given in the table on page 40 (described on p40 as "maximum distance" rather than "normal distance"). I don't think the term "movement rate" is used in the rules.

Hey Lawrence,

No the movement rate is not in the rules its my own interpretation in this case pertaining to what is a normal move. I just wanted to find out what normal meant because I can see it both ways. It would have been nice if they quoted page 40 when they said normal move distance. I might have to just make a note to use when playing so as to not forget normal move as I have been just adding 2MU to the LF's evade move including VMD to keep it simple. To be honest I think it really makes no difference but I would like to play based on the intent of the rules. Hammy makes a good point as always. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Brian

[lawrenceg]

Hey Lawrence,

No the movement rate is not in the rules its my own interpretation in this case pertaining to what is a normal move. I just wanted to find out what normal meant because I can see it both ways. It would have been nice if they quoted page 40 when they said normal move distance. I might have to just make a note to use when playing so as to not forget normal move as I have been just adding 2MU to the LF's evade move including VMD to keep it simple. To be honest I think it really makes no difference but I would like to play based on the intent of the rules. Hammy makes a good point as always. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Brian

I agree they didn't make it as clear as they might have, but it's "close enough for government work".

The most likely time for it to make a difference is when you roll a short VMD. In that case in effect it changes it to a VMD of +2 if necessary to get through your second line of troops.

The authors must have put it in for a reason, and I suspect the reason was to make it easier to get LF out of the way with the minimum of difficulty.

[BrianC]

Hey Lawrence,

No the movement rate is not in the rules its my own interpretation in this case pertaining to what is a normal move. I just wanted to find out what normal meant because I can see it both ways. It would have been nice if they quoted page 40 when they said normal move distance. I might have to just make a note to use when playing so as to not forget normal move as I have been just adding 2MU to the LF's evade move including VMD to keep it simple. To be honest I think it really makes no difference but I would like to play based on the intent of the rules. Hammy makes a good point as always. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Brian

I agree they didn't make it as clear as they might have, but it's "close enough for government work".

The most likely time for it to make a difference is when you roll a short VMD. In that case in effect it changes it to a VMD of +2 if necessary to get through your second line of troops.

The authors must have put it in for a reason, and I suspect the reason was to make it easier to get LF out of the way with the minimum of difficulty.

That makes sense Lawrence,

One point perhaps. I don't have the rules in front of me but could there be a speed issue when you are either interpenetrating or bursting through a friendly BG at an angle. Say you are moving from left side to the right side of a BG that is 6x2 stands so 6 MU wide. A HF routes 1.90 MU and must burst through the BG so it moves all the way through to the other side. Now if that was a LF BG evading it could only move 5 + 2 = 7MU. In both cases you start just shy of 2 MU away. The LF would not have enough movement even with the +2 to interpenetrate. So it would appear that the HF in this particular case is faster. I know the difference is in the way or rule being used in each case, 1 Interpenetration and 2 Bursting Through.

Or have I missed some basic concept again

Thanks

Brian

[hammy]

Brian,

I think you have missed the fundamental reason why the +2 MU rule really doesn't need to be there and makes little difference.

If a BG of LF can't make it through with the +2 MU rule then by definition it becomes "all other cases" which is the same rule that the HF would have to use. As long as all the bases of the LF BG make it into the BG they are passing through then they all get to the far side regardless of the +2 MU.