Hand-Guns ?

[Aetius]

Another later medieval question folks: Hand guns - can they be used by troops other than LF?

It seems to be a wargames list/rules writers convention that medieval hand guns are depicted as Light Foot or skirmish troops, when there is a strong body of evidence that they could just as easily be used by Heavy or Medium (close order) foot as well.

Obvious examples being:
- Hussite Wagon Crew & seperate infantry formations
- Hungarian combined handgun & pole arm close order infantry formations
- Later C15th/early C16th Milanese militia - double armed foot with polearms & handguns (Medium foot, protected, poor, drilled(?), hand gun, heavy weapon ?)
- even Later C15th Ottoman Jannissary (Medium foot, protected, superior, drilled, hand-gun, impact foot swordsmen ?)

Also - I'm not clear but do Hand-Guns get any advantage for shooting at an Armoured or Heavily Armoured target? Surely, this is one of their chief advantages.

Many thanks
Aetius

[rbodleyscott]

Also - I'm not clear but do Hand-Guns get any advantage for shooting at an Armoured or Heavily Armoured target? Surely, this is one of their chief advantages.

Their advantage is that they suffer no disadvantage for shooting at such targets, whereas less penetrative missile weapons do. Their relatively low POA overall is due to their slow rate of fire.

[Redpossum]

Also - I'm not clear but do Hand-Guns get any advantage for shooting at an Armoured or Heavily Armoured target? Surely, this is one of their chief advantages.

Their advantage is that they suffer no disadvantage for shooting at such targets, whereas less penetrative missile weapons do. Their relatively low POA overall is due to their slow rate of fire.

I have a fair amount of first-hand experience with single-shot, muzzle-loading, blackpowder pistols, albeit with modern black powder, which is of far higher quality than 14-15th century powders.

I would say that if anything, FoG flatters their penetration and overall performance, rather than understating it.

The rules are fine just as they exist, in my not-so-humble opinion.

[Aetius]

From my own experiance using historical replica button-lock late C15th handguns, at carefully conducted scientific trial for the Royal Armouries (during my time with White Company, Co.St.George and Kings Ordonnance) - I'd agree that at longer ranges their effect is not that impressive.
However at short range 10 to 15 feet you can put a hole the size of a grapefruit through a boiler plate steel of munition breastplate thickness.

There are a number of interesting illustrations, mainly Flemish or low countries, that show heavily armoured handgunners mixed into formations with troops armed with pikes or heavy melee weapons. They appear to be acting rather like 'anti-tank' weapons and it seems possible that they were used to target the more heavily armoured enemy in the melee.

Anyway - many thanks for the clarification on the effects of HG in FoG Richard.

Mark

[Redpossum]

From my own experiance using historical replica button-lock late C15th handguns, at carefully conducted scientific trial for the Royal Armouries (during my time with White Company, Co.St.George and Kings Ordonnance) - I'd agree that at longer ranges their effect is not that impressive.
However at short range 10 to 15 feet you can put a hole the size of a grapefruit through a boiler plate steel of munition breastplate thickness.

There are a number of interesting illustrations, mainly Flemish or low countries, that show heavily armoured handgunners mixed into formations with troops armed with pikes or heavy melee weapons. They appear to be acting rather like 'anti-tank' weapons and it seems possible that they were used to target the more heavily armoured enemy in the melee.

Anyway - many thanks for the clarification on the effects of HG in FoG Richard.

Mark

Aetius, no offense, but did you achieve these results using modern corned black powder, or black powder manufactured using the methods of the 14-15th century?

I don't mean to be snippy, but the efficiency of black powder manufactured using modern methods is almost double that of period powder.

And as for the replica firearms, were they made using modern steel, or steel manufactured using 14-15th century methods? Again, there is a huge difference in the safe pressure levels possible using "replica" firearms manufactured with modern methods and materials.

I'm going to politely stick to my opinion that, if anything, FoG flatters early firearms, rather than understating their effectiveness.

Arguments aside, just pure curiosity, what caliber of handguns were you working with?

[Scrumpy]

A .357 magnum Handgun, the deadliest in the world ?

[Aetius]

I totally agree on the black-powder quality - we were using modern milled & leaded black powder as supplied by Royal Armouries for the tests, so I am sure the effect of the tests would have been less impressive at longer ranges with c.C15th quality. However, at almost point-blank range in an advance to contact situation, the psycological effect of a number of hand guns opening up & targetting the heavier armoured 'worthies' in the front ranks would be significant.

I am not sure of the actual calibre of the hand-guns tested (but they are shown in the Co.St.George book) - I'd need to contact Gerry Embleton - as at least one of the handguns tested was his replica gun, but I know his gun was based on an original in one of the Swiss museums, so my guess is that the calibre would have been historically correct.

Going back to my original question ... do we envisage seeing Heavy or Medium Foot troop types armed with HG's in the lists?
I would have expected late C15th Ottoman Jannissary to have at least had some troops of this configeration available?

Thanks
Aetius

[puster]

Going back to my original question ... do we envisage seeing Heavy or Medium Foot troop types armed with HG's in the lists?
I would have expected late C15th Ottoman Jannissary to have at least had some troops of this configeration available?

Thanks
Aetius

I just reread some reports on the Siege of Malta (mainly Bradford) and he cites some contemporaries who claim that firearms only found widespread usage with the Ottomans after the Siege of Rhodos 1522. By the siege of Malta they excelled in sniping and their guns where more precisve but slower to load then the Christian types. That view, however, maybe biased. I found no reference at what point the Janissaries introduced firearms as standard for all Janissaries. In reports on the Siege of Vienna 1529 there are some specialist heavy firearms, but not much reference to the usage in battles. When the Janissaries tried to storm the breaches they did not use firearms to any notable effect.

[whitehorses]

I think Handguns were use at 2nd St. Alban's on the Yorkist side, which although they tended to be a little 'unstable' were more in the vein of Medium Foot than Light Foot