road & +1 MU rule???

[j2klbs]

I'm confused with the rule regarding roads presented on p. 41. Specifically, it states...

"Troops in column move at +1 MU along roads or through any terrain if the indicated move distance is less than their move distance in open terrain."

Okay, so their are two ways to interpret the "or" in this sentence:

Interpretation A: troops in column gain +1 MU when (along roads) or (through any terrain where distance is slower than distance in open)

<or>

Interpretation B: troops in column gain +1 MU when (along road or through any terrain) if the distance is slower than the distance in open

In other words, does the qualifier that the distance must be slower than when in open apply to only the terrain part of the rule or also the road part. The implication of interpretation A is that troops can exceed their "maximum" move distance when travelling along a road in the open by 1 MU.

If interpretation B is correct, then I have two questions:

1) Why even have the reference to roads in the above cited rule at all as it serves no purpose? Roads are almost always in the open anyway with the exception of possibly having them go through a village <p>, and in this case the reference to roads in the rule is not necessary.

2) Other than restricting the placement of other terrain features, I cannot see any benefit to placing roads. Is there a benefit to roads that I am overlooking?

Thanks so much!
Jason

[rogerg]

If a BG is on a road then it would not be in another type of terrain. The road is the 'other' terrain.
If in column on a road +1 MU to the open going speed.
If in column in terrain where the move specified is less than the open going speed +1MU to the speed in that terrain.

I think that is your 'A'.

Not an official interpretation of course.

[babyshark]

The answer is A. Roads cannot, according to the terrain placement rules, pass through other terrain pieces. (Appendix 4, p140.) BGs in a column get a speed benefit both on roads and in terrain.

Marc

[BlueHawk]

The answer is A. Roads cannot, according to the terrain placement rules, pass through other terrain pieces. (Appendix 4, p140.) BGs in a column get a speed benefit both on roads and in terrain.

Marc

Considering the exception to that (Road through a Village), at what speed does a column move in such a road?

A. Open + 1 MU
B. Difficult + 1 MU

In case it's B, is there any difference for moving in column in a road inside a Village or just in column inside a Village but not in that road? and how is the order of a BG in such a road affected?

Thank you very much

Joao

[babyshark]

The answer is A. Roads cannot, according to the terrain placement rules, pass through other terrain pieces. (Appendix 4, p140.) BGs in a column get a speed benefit both on roads and in terrain.

Marc

Considering the exception to that (Road through a Village), at what speed does a column move in such a road?

A. Open + 1 MU
B. Difficult + 1 MU

In case it's B, is there any difference for moving in column in a road inside a Village or just in column inside a Village but not in that road? and how is the order of a BG in such a road affected?

Thank you very much

Joao

My answer is that the BG would move at its rate in difficult + 1 MU, because roads do not have a terrain effect of their own. It would suffer disorder effects as per difficult terrain.

Marc

[shall]

Interpretation A: troops in column gain +1 MU when (along roads) or (through any terrain where distance is slower than distance in open)

<or>

Interpretation B: troops in column gain +1 MU when (along road or through any terrain) if the distance is slower than the distance in open

A

And for what its worth with B is impossible as there is no speed in the table for roads, so unless you have added the +1 there is no speed to compare to open terrain. It would become circular s far as I can see.

Si

[BlueHawk]

The answer is A. Roads cannot, according to the terrain placement rules, pass through other terrain pieces. (Appendix 4, p140.) BGs in a column get a speed benefit both on roads and in terrain.

Marc

Considering the exception to that (Road through a Village), at what speed does a column move in such a road?

A. Open + 1 MU
B. Difficult + 1 MU

In case it's B, is there any difference for moving in column in a road inside a Village or just in column inside a Village but not in that road? and how is the order of a BG in such a road affected?

Thank you very much

Joao

My answer is that the BG would move at its rate in difficult + 1 MU, because roads do not have a terrain effect of their own. It would suffer disorder effects as per difficult terrain.

Marc

Thanks for clarifying. So it's fair to say that a road in a Village as no effect whatsoever, apart from connecting to a "real" road in open and from the aesthetical one (like "The Triumph Parade" for the army who can claim it... )?

Joao

[terrys]

I guess this question is caused by the fact the we don't define 'roads' as a terrain type, but....

Since they are defined as 'a single base wide', then troops on the road aren't actually 'in' the terrain on either side (i.e. the village). Which means that they 'could' be considered to be in open terrain (for movement).
This presumes of course that 'open' is any area of the table that is not defined as 'broken' 'rough' or 'difficult'

[babyshark]

I guess this question is caused by the fact the we don't define 'roads' as a terrain type, but....

Since they are defined as 'a single base wide', then troops on the road aren't actually 'in' the terrain on either side (i.e. the village). Which means that they 'could' be considered to be in open terrain (for movement).
This presumes of course that 'open' is any area of the table that is not defined as 'broken' 'rough' or 'difficult'

Okay, Terry. Now that you have opened up this can of worms, what is the answer? Is a BG on a road in open terrain or in the type of terrain surrounding the road? It makes a difference, and not just for movement.

Marc

[terrys]

Okay, Terry. Now that you have opened up this can of worms, what is the answer? Is a BG on a road in open terrain or in the type of terrain surrounding the road? It makes a difference, and not just for movement.

Only if you're think of fighting on a road in a village..... But you wouldn't do that would you?????

Of course to further complicate this the definition of a village is:
"An area of buildings and sheds with a road passing through it."

So - if you have a village, and don't select an additional road, then the internal road counts as part of the village and therefore is difficult.
If you select an additional road and route it through the village then .......ermmmmm......
is it different ?????????

I think I'm confusing myself .... I must be bored!!!!!!

[babyshark]

I think I'm confusing myself .... I must be bored!!!!!!

Don't sell yourself short, Terry. You're confusing a lot of others as well.




Marc

[shall]

And people said I was confusing at times ....

In an attempt to rescue the meltdown....

Troops in column on a road always add +1 MU. So if in the open LF in column on a road move 6MU.

Troops in column not on roads add 1 MU back if they have lost any due to terrain effects - so a column of MF in rough get no speed increase as they are prefectly fine in normal formation and don't need a "follow the leader" method, but HF will gain 1 MU to move at 3MU.

A road can pass through a village for sure, but otherwise is initially placed outside other terrain pieces. If there is a village it must connect to it in fact.

A road is not open terrain as it is a terrain piece - it is whatever terrain it is in. We define open as being all areas of the table that do not have terrain pieces in the terrain section.

I have not often used roads, but when I have we did allow them to be moved and pivoted etc onto other terrain pieces as it only says and initial placement roll is not used. So they can end up in different terrain but they will more usually be in the open.

Si

[Redpossum]

And people said I was confusing at times ....

In an attempt to rescue the meltdown....

Troops in column on a road always add +1 MU. So if in the open LF in column on a road move 6MU.

Troops in column not on roads add 1 MU back if they have lost any due to terrain effects - so a column of MF in rough get no speed increase as they are prefectly fine in normal formation and don't need a "follow the leader" method, but HF will gain 1 MU to move at 3MU.

A road can pass through a village for sure, but otherwise is initially placed outside other terrain pieces. If there is a village it must connect to it in fact.

A road is not open terrain as it is a terrain piece - it is whatever terrain it is in. We define open as being all areas of the table that do not have terrain pieces in the terrain section.

I have not often used roads, but when I have we did allow them to be moved and pivoted etc onto other terrain pieces as it only says and initial placement roll is not used. So they can end up in different terrain but they will more usually be in the open.

Si

It was said in response to an earlier thread like this that roads may never be placed on terrain pieces, period, full stop. It was also said that, and I quote, "A road may never be placed on a village, but a village may be placed on a road."

I don't see how that reconciles with what Si is saying here.

[lawrenceg]

And people said I was confusing at times ....


A road can pass through a village for sure, but otherwise is initially placed outside other terrain pieces. If there is a village it must connect to it in fact.

A road is not open terrain as it is a terrain piece - it is whatever terrain it is in. We define open as being all areas of the table that do not have terrain pieces in the terrain section.

I have not often used roads, but when I have we did allow them to be moved and pivoted etc onto other terrain pieces as it only says and initial placement roll is not used. So they can end up in different terrain but they will more usually be in the open.

Si

It was said in response to an earlier thread like this that roads may never be placed on terrain pieces, period, full stop. It was also said that, and I quote, "A road may never be placed on a village, but a village may be placed on a road."

I don't see how that reconciles with what Si is saying here.

Neither of you are giving a correct account of the rules.

The road must be initially placed through or touching a village if there is one.

The movement dice still applies for the road.

There is no exception for roads to the rule that terrain pieces cannot be moved to overlap other pieces.

Open terrain is the whole battlefield apart from uneven, rough, difficult or impassable terrain.

Roads are of variable terrain type. The rules don't specify how to decide what type it is.

IMO any point in a village is difficult terrain, whether there is a road there or not.

[shall]

It was said in response to an earlier thread like this that roads may never be placed on terrain pieces, period, full stop. It was also said that, and I quote, "A road may never be placed on a village, but a village may be placed on a road."

I don't see how that reconciles with what Si is saying here.

That is because this view is wrong - they can be displaced on top of things but not initially placed so except for villages.

The road must be initially placed through or touching a village if there is one.

The movement dice still applies for the road.

There is no exception for roads to the rule that terrain pieces cannot be moved to overlap other pieces.

Open terrain is the whole battlefield apart from uneven, rough, difficult or impassable terrain.

Roads are of variable terrain type. The rules don't specify how to decide what type it is.

IMO any point in a village is difficult terrain, whether there is a road there or not.

Err exactly what I said is it not???

Si

[lawrenceg]

Err exactly what I said is it not???

Si

A road is not open terrain as it is a terrain piece - it is whatever terrain it is in. We define open as being all areas of the table that do not have terrain pieces in the terrain section.

By this definition, a road in the open would not be open terrain, as it is a terrain piece. The actual definition in the glossary does not say "terrain piece" and roads are permitted to be open terrain.

I have not often used roads, but when I have we did allow them to be moved and pivoted etc onto other terrain pieces as it only says and initial placement roll is not used. So they can end up in different terrain but they will more usually be in the open.

Si

The rules don't allow roads to be moved or pivoted onto other terrain pieces.

[Redpossum]

"A road may never be placed on a village,

The road must be initially placed through or touching a village if there is one.

That's not a contradiction?

And...

There is no exception for roads to the rule that terrain pieces cannot be moved to overlap other pieces.

I have not often used roads, but when I have we did allow them to be moved and pivoted etc onto other terrain pieces

That's not a contradiction?

[lawrenceg]

"A road may never be placed on a village,

The road must be initially placed through or touching a village if there is one.

That's not a contradiction?

And...

There is no exception for roads to the rule that terrain pieces cannot be moved to overlap other pieces.

I have not often used roads, but when I have we did allow them to be moved and pivoted etc onto other terrain pieces

That's not a contradiction?

Not sure what Possum's point is here as it is obvious that they are both contradictions.

For the avoidance of doubt:

In each case the what the rules actually say contradicts what people thought the rules say.
The rules do not contradict themselves.

[Redpossum]

My point, as usual, is on top of my head

So which is actually the case?

[lawrenceg]

My point, as usual, is on top of my head

So which is actually the case?

You could have found this out by looking in the rule book. You would have discovered:

The road must be initially placed through or touching a village if there is one.

and

There is no exception for roads to the rule that terrain pieces cannot be moved to overlap other pieces.