Bombers and Bridges and Engineers

[AnalogGamer]

Greetings all,

A sentence that flew out of my head in another thread took root. So I want to see if this has been discussed before, as a mod or future game feature. I would think that it has, but hate necro-ing threads

Imagine if Strategic Bombers could take out bridges and railroad hexes. Not instantly, every time, but damage and then destruction, or some similar mechanic.

This tweak could enhance the game in the following ways...

Bombers could have a new mission beyond tactical attack.

Bridges could give prestige for destruction, and/or turn-based rewards for protection.

Bridging Engineers could become much more useful and prevalent. Give the engineers the ability to also repair railroad hexes that have been damaged/destroyed. They are engineers after all. Unless one wanted to develop a new engineer unit.

Guarding bridges would become a priority. AAA near a crossing is historically accurate as well.

Rail use and rail gun use would require more thought and protection.

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My ignorance on the consequences is great and manifold. Help me Obi-Wans...

Can the AI even use bridging engineers properly? If it cannot bridge, this would break the game.

Would the AI code be able to bomb bridges itself? Or be able to choose when and where to do it?

Would anyone like this as a feature? Just because I would doesn't mean d*ck.

Could this be modded in, or is it an engine-based issue?

My mod suggestion is to take bridging engineers of a nation other than the two fighting, and morph them into bridges. Immobile, high hit point, re-visualized, no ammo, high entrenchment, insane close defense. They would look like a bridge, act like a bridge, and die like a bridge under fire... but not troop fire.

EDIT - They would also have to have no replacement capability. Would have to be under control of someone I bet, which means defender, which means retiring the unit destroys the bridge in the enemy's face. Which I would love either way.

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On the assumption that this is possible, then it would probably work best with multi-turn destruction and repair. Unless it is a late-game over-strength bomber, the bridge should stand a good chance of surviving an attack or two. Engineers in the bridge hex should provide instant transport and multi-turn repair. As long as they stay put for two or three turns, the bridge is fixed and they could move on.

That is something I thought should have been in Panzer General, much less Panzer Corps. Bridging Engineers are NOT the bridge. Two or three turns in place, and a bridge is there, and the enginners can move and put another somewhere else... leaving a bridge in place. THAT would see more engineers in people's OOB.


Thanks for your attention, and I welcome any input or discussion.

[proline]

It would be great for strategic bombers and bridging engineers to be more valuable. However, the problem is that in PzC supply lines are not simulated. That means that in offensive scenarios if you blow bridges behind the AI their combat effectiveness will not be reduced, and the AI will not be inconvenienced when it attempts to withdraw because it never, ever, withdraws except on two or three scenarios where it is scripted to do so. You would only be making it harder for you to advance. Similarly, the AI would gain no advantage by blowing the bridges behind your forces as your supply would be unaffected and your units are already across.

On defensive scenarios where you are allowed to give ground permanently this mechanic might work, and indeed it has been implemented in some scenarios such as Eindhoven. However most scenarios are either pure offense or start with an AI attack but then ask you to switch to offense. Pure defense where you finish behind where you started is rare.

As it stands now, the AI cannot use bridging engineers. In some scenarios they have bridging units that are triggered to rush towards and occupy particular river hexes. However if you kill those specific units or block those specific hexes the AI is finished. It cannot buy another bridging unit or find another place to cross. The Sealow Heights scenario is a perfect example. Put one unit next to each enemy bridging unit and the AI will just sit there on the other side even though it could cross if it only moved its bridging engineers one hex to the side.

Btw, trains are already expensive to use as it takes many turns to get where you need to go and get back into the fight. They do not need anymore nerfs, which is what letting you bomb the tracks would be. If anything, they need a buff, such as letting you get off a train at a non-train station.

[AnalogGamer]

Ahh I see. Thanks for the info.

I figured the Ai was not good at things like this. A feature such as this would change the scenario design meta. Scripted reinforcements for both sides etc.

I get where you are coming from with the RR tracks. Never liked having to find a city hex to de-train myself, or the delay.


Oh well, it was just a thought that I wanted to throw out. It may have been some left-brain attempt to change the dynamic to generate the type of battles we do not have or see. Like you stated, we don't have scenarios or situations that take logistical route loss into account... and that mattered a lot in the war. Nor do we have many losing ground defensive battles.

I still like the idea of modded 3rd nation engineers to use as bridges that could be destroyed by defender to prevent attacker crossing, or attacker to prevent defense reinforcement. Would have to be custom PvP battles I am thinking.

[captainjack]

Plan A.
There are a few scenarios where bridges and rail lines get destroyed (US42/43, Soviet Corps) or created (Sealion) by script actions that change hex codes. The big problem for me is that it can be difficult to work out what terrain codes to enter to make this work. Also some of the scripting can be very tricky. For example, "the rail line is repaired if the special engineer unit spends three uninterrupted turns on the same spot" is easy enough to spell out but requires (I think) nine lines of precisely ordered script. Not impossible, but a bit harder than it needs to be, especially since it's not possible to copy and paste scripts (or victory conditions, but that's not relevant here).

Plan B.
You can place bridge engineers or tanks on rivers (43 East) or create immobile bridging units (eg Structure class with BEng trait like a bridging tank that doesn't move) which can be placed on rivers as part of a scenario. This kind of unit-based approach is easier to manage in scenario scripting as you don't need a list of the hex codes. The main limitation is that you can't have a unit on the bridge but it works OK, and you can for example, adjust defence values and allow passive attacks to meet scenario needs just by adding an extra line to the equipment file.

As for AI bombing bridges, you can assign a zone to the bridge hex and script the AI bombers to move to that zone.

[AnalogGamer]

Thanks for that information CptJack. I figured the engine would make things a tad clunky, but I don't have the skillset to look into it.

So if I am understanding you, every rail hex would need modification to be destroyed and repaired. Yikes. Never mind.

But bridges could be. There are not that many per map.

My big mod request would be for Bridging Engineers that leave a permanent bridge behind after spending 2/3 turns on a river hex. Big upgrade in utility for that unit class. Historically accurate as well. Maybe have it cost 2 strength points for each bridge to signify the troops left behind to maintain and repair.

Then destruction of other bridges becomes easier to deal with for play purposes.

[captainjack]

From memory, destruction and construction is simply a matter of "place this unit here". The AI looks for any unit or a particular type of unit on that hex. If it's there, it changes the relevant hex into a bridge or into an empty hex. If you want to do this, the best thing is to look at a scenario that does what you want and copy the instructions.

If you wanted to attack a railway at any point you would have to have a lot of scripts, but you could for example, have a zone or two running along the railway route. Place a ground unit in the zone, and you could, for example, completely remove the entire line or blank several hexes along the route. Construction of rail lines may be a little harder as you have to make sure it connects to the next rail hex properly, but the restoration should be similar. In most cases, a single break should be enough to disrupt rail travel.