Suggestion for you - Switchable units

[JaM2013]

Here is one idea for you for future - certain units played multiple roles in ancient battles and not necesarilly at the same time. For example Greek Thureophoroi were commonly mentioned as spearmen infantry, which is also capable performing skirmish duties, or Hellenic Peltasts, who were trained as spearmen, phalangites, but also as javelinmen on multiple occasions. Roman Velites similarly could fight as skirmishers but also as melee infantry.

So, my idea is, to give these units ability to switch to different tactical role at deployment.. so player would chose which of his Thureophoroi will be deployed as spearmen, and which will instead fight as skirmishers.. i think this could be also used for other units, like Gallic Warbands, who could be "switched" between open and close order formations before battle.. similarly, late Roman legionaries could get ability to be employed as lighly equipped Antesignani..

Of course, it would require having both types of units present in units file, while button would just switch between these two same way as if you select square formation for Pikemen.. I think it would give player a bit more options in battle, as he would be able to better adjust himself for certain terrains.. it would be better to use all warbands in close order if you fight in open map, while open order would be used in woods.. etc ...

[rbodleyscott]

Certainly something to consider. We will need to do something similar for some dismounting troops.

[nikgaukroger]

So, my idea is, to give these units ability to switch to different tactical role at deployment..

Nice idea

[Scutarii]

I think this is a good idea... remember me the FOG I double role of knights... some knights units can be turned from mounted to unmounted status... this made you had or a heavy cavalry unit or a heavy infantry unit as you need.

EDIT: now with medium infantry with same mobility than heavy foot i think that made you can define certain medium infantry units as "skirmishers/medium foot" with better melee stats thanks to armor and other atributes and instead 2 squares of movement have 3 when they are defined as skirmishers... and as bonus they can evade enemy heavy foot and cavalry.

[stockwellpete]

Could you go further with this idea and have that possibility available during the battle, not just at deployment? I remember playing a John Tiller Renaissance game where various units could split up and deploy as skirmishers and then re-form again.

[Cumandante]

Could you go further with this idea and have that possibility available during the battle, not just at deployment? I remember playing a John Tiller Renaissance game where various units could split up and deploy as skirmishers and then re-form again.

That would be awesome! Switching should take up a full turn, though.

[Scutarii]

The problem with Tiller system is the increase of units to manage apart you made pure light units lose value because you can buy a medium infantry unit that could deploy a light unit... smaller than regular light but that could work as light and not all armies can use this (i think only that greek medium infantry and maybe the medium javelin unit doint this).

I have a lot experience with Tiller games and the skirmish play a relative pasive role when cavalry is present because can overrun them and destroy with a charge (we dont have this in FOG 2 and lights are more active in game because have autoevade even when not allways work fine) and VS infantry they deal relative high damage compared with the damage they receive BUT at same time is relative easy lose skirmish because they break and move far from the mother unit.... other point is that skirmish units are a small unit, from a 440 soldiers battalion they represent 75 soldiers in FOG you need at least half unit size... the question is... the medium deployed as light represent full unit as light or 2 light units or a base remain as medium and appear a 2nd light unit???

I want see some medium infantry with the ability to work as light foot with no shot ability but increased movility to hunt lights (and with evade ability like light infantry)... at same time they are very nimble VS heavy-medium foot... or use them as medium foot like they are now.

[Cumandante]

The problem with Tiller system is the increase of units to manage apart you made pure light units lose value because you can buy a medium infantry unit that could deploy a light unit... smaller than regular light but that could work as light and not all armies can use this (i think only that greek medium infantry and maybe the medium javelin unit doint this).

Surely this can be compensated for with increased cost for hybrid units.

[nikgaukroger]

Could you go further with this idea and have that possibility available during the battle, not just at deployment? I remember playing a John Tiller Renaissance game where various units could split up and deploy as skirmishers and then re-form again.

I don't think that would be historical for this period - at least not extending it beyond the already available cavalry with bows who can shoot, evade and fight already such as those in the Skythian list.

[rbodleyscott]

Could you go further with this idea and have that possibility available during the battle, not just at deployment? I remember playing a John Tiller Renaissance game where various units could split up and deploy as skirmishers and then re-form again.

Well it probably varies from unit to unit, but many units did not do this.

Thureophoroi seem to have either deployed as Spearmen for the whole battle, or as Euzonoi skirmishing with javelins for the whole battle. They were either part of the battle line or not part of the battle line. They didn't suddenly switch half way through the battle.

Likewise Alexander's foot companions were sometimes deployed with javelins instead of pikes, operating in a medium foot role in difficult terrain. They would not suddenly be able to magic pikes out of thin air half-way through the battle.

There may be some special cases, but for most it should be at deployment only.

[Scutarii]

Why not made medium foot designed to hunt light foot (like greek mediums) can work in heavy foot role with 2 square movement (as is now) BUT you can deploy them as light foot with increased movement (3-4 squares) trading speed for combat value VS mounted-heavy foot-medium foot???

They can pursuit light foot, engage it and kill it very fast (double size+armor+melee weapons) BUT are very vulnerable VS other types... for example a medium foot in light formation when is attacked by any mounted-heavy-medium foot unit allways pass cohesion test even when result is not bad enough to pass a cohesion test???

[jomni]

More problems for the AI to consider.

[Scutarii]

More problems for the AI to consider.

A simple aproximation could be increase medium foot action points... when they face weak ZOC units (like light foot) they can push them more than heavy foot, other thing could be made medium foot have an extra atribute called "light" this made the units with light atribute suffer less penalties in forest and similar terrain, they have penalties but lighter.

But in the end in medieval armies you are going to need add mounted-dismounted knights and the portable defenses for longbow units....

[stockwellpete]

But in the end in medieval armies you are going to need add mounted-dismounted knights and the portable defenses for longbow units....

With the medieval period there is also the interesting question of how you might deal with longbowmen. At the start of the battle could they be classed as skirmishers and then have the ability to merge into a medium foot unit for melee purposes, or are they best depicted as medium foot massed archer units (with sword capability for retinue types) throughout?

[nikgaukroger]

But in the end in medieval armies you are going to need add mounted-dismounted knights and the portable defenses for longbow units....

With the medieval period there is also the interesting question of how you might deal with longbowmen. At the start of the battle could they be classed as skirmishers and then have the ability to merge into a medium foot unit for melee purposes, or are they best depicted as medium foot massed archer units (with sword capability for retinue types) throughout?

I'm pretty sure skirmisher is not a good way to depict them even at the start of a battle.

Possibly a better question for English longbowmen is whether in the WotR (and maybe late HYW) they should be separate from the men-at-arms types or in a combined body ...

[Scutarii]

Seeing the effectivity of indian medium bows i dont think longbow units need be lights... here the role of cavalry is going to be critical because infantry alone VS medium bows are food for them and if you add crossbows to support them... because i asume are going to be the cheap shot medium foot in medieval list.

[nikgaukroger]

Seeing the effectivity of indian medium bows i dont think longbow units need be lights...

I really must try some more games against the Indians as I'm just not seeing this effectiveness. Flattened 2 Indian armies with Seleukids. Perhaps it is because I am only playing against the AI?

[Cheimison]

I think this is a good idea... remember me the FOG I double role of knights... some knights units can be turned from mounted to unmounted status... this made you had or a heavy cavalry unit or a heavy infantry unit as you need.

YES. I really don't like when they don't let you dismount your knights in war games. Dude is wearing articulated plate, he's probably more agile in that than most of us computer nerds are in our hoodies.

[nikgaukroger]

I think this is a good idea... remember me the FOG I double role of knights... some knights units can be turned from mounted to unmounted status... this made you had or a heavy cavalry unit or a heavy infantry unit as you need.

YES. I really don't like when they don't let you dismount your knights in war games. Dude is wearing articulated plate, he's probably more agile in that than most of us computer nerds are in our hoodies.

However, IMO it was normal to make such a decision prior to, or at the start of the battle and not during.

[Benedict151]

nikgaukroger : "Possibly a better question for English longbowmen is whether in the WotR (and maybe late HYW) they should be separate from the men-at-arms types or in a combined body"

I am glad someone asked this question (although at the moment its some distance from what FoGII covers) as I think its a good one

I hasten to add that I don't have an answer to it however!

Ben Wilkins