Knights of St. John

[gibby]

Hi,

I have a very nicely painted Knights of St.John army which could do with seeing some action. Any ideas what book it will be in and how long before said book will be out.

Cheers
Jim

[nikgaukroger]

Not yet slated for any list book I'm afraid.

[frederic]

So already two nicely painted Knights of St.John army are waiting for their army list.

My friend Eric play them as Crusader waiting the maybe future army list.

[expendablecinc]

Hi,

I have a very nicely painted Knights of St.John army which could do with seeing some action. Any ideas what book it will be in and how long before said book will be out.

Cheers
Jim

You could you use them in the Navarese and Medieval Cypriot lists.

[gibby]

Thanks, I was thinking of the cypriot, sort of surprised it was not in the crusdades book but what do I know.

Jim

[hazelbark]

I heard maybe incorrectly that the knights of SJ, were historically not numerous enough to warrent a FoG list and would be more in the way of an ally in other armies.

But don't take this rumor to the bank.

[Redpossum]

I heard maybe incorrectly that the knights of SJ, were historically not numerous enough to warrent a FoG list and would be more in the way of an ally in other armies.

But don't take this rumor to the bank.

No Hospitallers, eh?

This leaves the Templars in the same boat, presumably?

[hazelbark]

Well what army did the Templars ever field?

A unit got wiped out with the main army and wasn't that pretty much it?

[IrishBouzouki]

Montgisard (forgive sp, not even sure I do not have the name confused with another battle) circa 1170's I believe
A Templar army fought Saladin, forget who won for sure but I think the battle resulted in Saladin turning back and going home for the campaign season
someone else can look up the details, or post from a better memory than mine
so... at least one field battle of some transient import, but I believe it was one of the very few they fought on their own and from memory the largest

[Redpossum]

Montgisard (forgive sp, not even sure I do not have the name confused with another battle) circa 1170's I believe
A Templar army fought Saladin, forget who won for sure but I think the battle resulted in Saladin turning back and going home for the campaign season
someone else can look up the details, or post from a better memory than mine
so... at least one field battle of some transient import, but I believe it was one of the very few they fought on their own and from memory the largest

Your memory is good, Montgisard was the name of the battle, 1177 was the year, and 500 Templars in the vanguard are credited with leading the charge that broke Salah-ed-Din's army of roughly 26,000.

But that doesn't mean the whole army was made up of Templars.

Hazelbark is correct in that regard, and the disaster he's referring to was Gérard de Ridefort (at the time the Grand Master of the Order) screwing up by the numbers in his tactical command at the Horns of Hattin. Ah well, according to the usual account, de Ridefort was captured, offered the opportunity to accept Islam, and chopped personally by Salah-ed-Din when he replied, "I squat with bared arse upon your faith". Personally, if forced to choose between "Sword or Koran" like that, I think I'd be strongly tempted to reply, "Allahu Akbar!"

At best estimate, there were between 15,000 and 20,000 Templars in the whole order at its peak, and only about 10% of those were actually knights.

Anyhow, I just learned most of this today, after doing some research in response to this thread.

It's been an interesting day for research, all in all. I think I finally learned what the hell "Ordonnance" means, too. It was confusing to try to research, because the word itself just means "ordinance" in french. Near as I can figure, it means the Burgundian armies around the time of Charles the Bold, but I can't figure where the word came from.

[nikgaukroger]

Ordonnance was the edict/instruction that laid out the structure of the army.

[Draka]

Basically, during most of the Hundred Years War between the English and the French, the French side was composed of mainly mercenaries. Long story, but the future French Royals didn't have a lot of true power - especially in raising funds and troops. At the end of the conflict, when Charles VII finally won and became the King of France, he "issued an ordonnance [royal edict] that denied anyone other than the king to raise troops. This in effect outlawed all the freelancers -- the écorcheurs. Though Charles VII did not have an army to enforce it, it marked the beginning of French military reform."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagnies_d'ordonnance

As time passed, these ordinances became the basis of the modern French army and are the documents upon which these troops are based in wargames.

I had an in-depth article bookmarked on this history but can't find it ATM - I'll keep looking and will post it here when I find it.

[Redpossum]

OK, so are you guys saying that I'm mistaken about that referring to the Burgundians? That the term actually means post-HYW french?

Neither of you really addressed what the word means in FoG...

[rbodleyscott]

OK, so are you guys saying that I'm mistaken about that referring to the Burgundians? That the term actually means post-HYW french?

Neither of you really addressed what the word means in FoG...

Both the French army from Charles VII onwards and the Burgundian army under Charles the Bold were drawn up under official Ordonnances. Hence the lists are called that to distinguish them from their earlier periods when the armies were significantly different.